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Featured Islam and Judaism are refuted.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by calm, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Could you give me some sources for Jewish persecution of Christians?
     
  2. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    And thanks to people questioning we have thousands of Protestant denominations, each with its own unique interpretation.
     
  3. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter whether they did or not. All that matters is that Christians believed that their book said that the Pharisees plotted to get Christ killed.

    The bible would be the main source. There is the persecution of Jesus. And apparently Paul was a Jew who hunted Christians, which he claims in his letters.
     
  4. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. But if they have certain common beliefs then it adds validity to the authenticity of their beliefs coming from the common source that they use. Plus, open discussion about how something should be interpreted has a possibility of leading to truth, whereas one class of people holding the keys to interpretation means that they can make people believe whatever they want. They problem many Christian groups and cults have is that they have given the keys to interpretation over to a certain person or a certain class of people, which means that they can be easily manipulated by those with the power.
     
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    The tense is relevant because of how you phrased the question.

    You asked how could it be about Israel? It could be about Israel; because, the words describe things that had happened in Israel. Had happened; past tense.

    Regarding the "He/Him" pronouns, there is no gender neutral pronoun in Biblical Hebrew. So, the presence of "He/Him" in the verses is not very strong evidence that those specific verses are talking about Jesus.

    From my perspective: Chap 53 of Isaiah might be prophetic. You seem certain that it is; but, I think it's unlikely. Compare Chap 11 with Chap 53. What you will see is that Chap 53 is written in past tense and Chap 11 is written in future tense.

    If someone believes that the entire book of Isaiah is authentic and rendered accurately and written by a single source then why shift from future tense in Chap 11 to past tense in Chap 53 if both Chapters are speaking about the same prophecy?

    To me, it makes sense to read and understand Chap 53 as historical and Chap 11 as prophecy.

    That's my opinion about it. There's nothing wrong with reading and understanding Chap 53 as prophecy. But I think that this interpretation does not negate Chap 53 as being historical.

    Does that make sense?
     
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  6. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I did not know that.... but do the pronouns specify quantity?
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Isaiah 53 is about Baha’u’llah, the return of the Christ Spirit that Jesus promised to send (John 14:16, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:17).

    Baha’u’llah was also the Messiah the Jews have been long awaiting.

    There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfilment.

    Isaiah had foretold:

    Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    • Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.
    • The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.
    Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    • I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.
    Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    • Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.
    Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    • Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people couldbe heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.
    Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    • Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.
    Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
    • Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:
    • “Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28
    • The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Baháthe Centre of his Covenant.
    • Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.
    • These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes 4:14: “ For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.”
    From: Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159
     
  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Simple answer, yes, I think...

    But "us" and "them" and "y'all", are gender neutral, I think...

    @rosends , Can you help with this?
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, I do not hate anybody.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, I am not aware of that, but that was a separate matter....
    They suffered at the Hands of the Almighty God for rejecting Jesus Christ.
    Or do you think it is just a-okay to reject a Manifestation of God such as Jesus?
     
  11. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Hebrew nouns have only two genders, male and female.

    Plural female nouns end with vav-tav, making the sound like 'oat,'

    Plural male nouns end with yod-mem making the sound like 'eem.'
     
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  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    This is probably my fault. I made a comment about proselyting recently and I think I insulted Trailblazer...
     
  13. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Yet it was God that blinded them according to Paul. Some God.
     
  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    If it is quantity specific, and it is in the singular, one can at least claim that it is referring to an individual in which case it can at least support the case that the verse is referring to an individual (possibly a messiah) and not a group of people.
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    the "Land" or the "Nation" is generally written about in Masculine Singular.

    @Wandering Monk ? Do you concur?
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    They also describe what happened to Baha'u'llah during His mission on earth.
    #148 Trailblazer, 14 minutes ago
    I understand what you are saying but Chapter 53 cannot be about a country or a people unless you really struggle to make it into a metaphor. It says "a man of sorrows."
    • a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
    • He was taken from prison and from judgment
    • And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death
    • he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days
    If you read Chapter 53 and then Chapter 11 it tells a story.
    Chapter 53 is about what happened to the Messiah when He came on His Mission.
    Chapter 11 also about the Messiah and what will happen in the Messianic Age.
     
  17. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    When land is written in the plural, it is feminine, eretzot.

    When the bible refers to nations, usually two different words are used: am and goy. Both take the masculine plural, so amim and goyim.

    Israel itself is a proper noun, masculine. Overwhelmingly, when the bible is referring to the collective people of Israel it uses the masculine b'nei Israel, literally, sons of Israel.

    In the Isaiah passages, Israel is referred to as 'my servant' by God. The word is 'eved' in Hebrew which takes the masculine plural, so 'evedim,'
     
    #157 Wandering Monk, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Do you have the verses that say that?
    I'd like to see them, not that I would believe it was God who did that, but I am always open to learning. :)

    FYI, I do not blame the Jews, I blame the Jewish clerics of those times who rejected Jesus.
    Jews have simply believed what was passed down to them through the generations.
    Every time a new Manifestation of God appears, it is always the religious leaders who lead their flock astray.
     
  19. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    This is not clear in Paul after all. The blindness is never specifically attributed to God, but seems to be indirectly attributed to Him as part of the plan for Gentile salvation. See Romans 9 thru 11.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yikes!
     
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