Islam and Judaism are refuted.

[dybmh]

Why do you think that?
Every verse has either "he" or "him" in it.
How can that be about Israel?

The verses are written in past tense.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Why do you think that?
Every verse has either "he" or "him" in it.
How can that be about Israel?

Israel is also called the bride. Metaphors.

 

[Wandering Monk]

What do you think? Do you think using the phrase, "But I say" or "I say to you" is significant?

To me it sounds equivalent to "In my opinion".

No, it is not significant in the way Christians think it is, that in these verses Jesus showed himself as the ultimate authority, even over Moses and the Law.

Jesus was just using a form of rabbinic discourse, expressing his opinion about a disputed matter of Jewish law. Note that in Matthew 23:1 he instructed his disciples to obey the Scribes and Pharisees. Here HE defers to THEIR authority, not the other way around.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Excellent post. Why didn't Calm know these scriptures?

As for
Genesis 3:15


And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Christian Standard Bible I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel. Contemporary English Version

So obviously talking about the snake and humankind.. Nothing to do with Jesus.

It doesn't seem obvious that it is talking about mankind from what i read. The second sentence says HE will strike your head, and you will strike HIS heel. Since HE and HIS is singular it would indicate that an individual who is a descendent of Eve would strike the serpents head. Possibly a Messianic figure.

The first sentence seems to say that there will be enmity between a woman and the serpent, and between descendents of the serpents and the individual who would strike the serpents head.

 

[Wandering Monk]

It doesn't seem obvious that it is talking about mankind from what i read. The second sentence says HE will strike your head, and you will strike HIS heel. Since HE and HIS is singular it would indicate that an individual who is a descendent of Eve would strike the serpents head. Possibly a Messianic figure.

The first sentence seems to say that there will be enmity between a woman and the serpent, and between descendents of the serpents and the individual who would strike the serpents head.

With all the metaphor in that passage, why do you insist in being so literal with 'he?'

 

[rosends]

You have heard....but I say" was a common way for a rabbi to introduce his interpretation of a commandment of the Torah.

While the term "v'ani omer" (and I say) does appear in the Babylonian Talmud, it is used fewer than 18 times. Fifteen appearances in the whole of the Jerusalem text. I'm not sure how common that is considering the size of each text.

 

[Wandering Monk]

While the term "v'ani omer" (and I say) does appear in the Babylonian Talmud, it is used fewer than 18 times. Fifteen appearances in the whole of the Jerusalem text. I'm not sure how common that is considering the size of each text.

Point taken. Not common, but not unheard of.

 

[sooda]

It doesn't seem obvious that it is talking about mankind from what i read. The second sentence says HE will strike your head, and you will strike HIS heel. Since HE and HIS is singular it would indicate that an individual who is a descendent of Eve would strike the serpents head. Possibly a Messianic figure.

The first sentence seems to say that there will be enmity between a woman and the serpent, and between descendents of the serpents and the individual who would strike the serpents head.

Well, read it again. It has nothing to do with Jesus or Satan.

 

[Trailblazer]

The verses are written in past tense.

How is the tense relevant? He or Him is about a man. That is obvious to anyone who can read and comprehend.
I am sorry the Jews have a persecution complex. They suffered at the Hands of the Almighty God for rejecting Jesus Christ.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Jews believe that because they think everything revolves around them.
But it doesn't.
Jesus was a Messiah and the Savior of the world and they rejected Him. Woe betide the Jews for their unmitigated arrogance.

Hate much?

 

[Wandering Monk]

How is the tense relevant? He or Him is about a man. That is obvious to anyone who can read and comprehend.
I am sorry the Jews have a persecution complex. They suffered at the Hands of the Almighty God for rejecting Jesus Christ.

A complex? Are you aware the virtually all Jewish persecution came from Christians starting from about the fifth century onward?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Well, read it again. It has nothing to do with Jesus or Satan.

I never said that it did. I mentioned the serpent and an individual who is possibly a Messianic figure. The passage does plant the seed for those characters though. It all depends on how following stories expand on those verses. So from those verses the characters of Satan and Jesus could develop, and certainly did with regard to Christianity which is an offshoot of Judaism, started by Jews.

Anyway, my main problem with your viewpoint on the verses is that it OBVIOUSLY talking about humankind. Obviously it is not obvious.

 

[Samael_Khan]

With all the metaphor in that passage, why do you insist in being so literal with 'he?'

Because words have to mean something otherwise using them is pointless. Bare in mind that I was only pointing out that it isn't OBVIOUS that the passage is about the snake verses mankind. I am not against other interpretations of the verse, such as it being about mankind, but one has to do textual analysis to show that that is a possibility.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Because words have to mean something otherwise using them is pointless. Bare in mind that I was only pointing out that it isn't OBVIOUS that the passage is about the snake verses mankind. I am not against other interpretations of the verse, such as it being about mankind, but one has to do textual analysis to show that that is a possibility.

What words are meaningful is determined by the reader's bias or predisposition.

 

[Samael_Khan]

A complex? Are you aware the virtually all Jewish persecution came from Christians starting from about the fifth century onward?

This is an interesting point actually. It seems that Jews were persecuted because they persecuted Jesus. And then they were constantly persecuted in different lands by "Christians" up until WW2. I think they are still persecuted to some extent but not as badly.

 

[Wandering Monk]

This is an interesting point actually. It seems that Jews were persecuted because they persecuted Jesus. And then they were constantly persecuted in different lands by "Christians" up until WW2. I think they are still persecuted to some extent but not as badly.

SOME Jews were involved in Jesus' persecution. SOME Romans convicted him and nailed him up too. Do we hate Italians for their part?

Many Jews became his followers if you believe the NT. Some were even priests.

Ultimately, Christian doctrine says the Jesus died because of ALL OUR sins.

 

[Samael_Khan]

What words are meaningful is determined by the reader's bias or predisposition.

Which is the sad truth. When I first read the bible I read it with the preconceived idea that God was this invisible bodiless being, and all verses explaining him having a body and being incarnate I interpreted as metaphor. Then, when asking myself why I believed such an idea, I tried finding proof for my view in the scriptures and found that the book doesnt say that God does not have hands and a body and couldn't incarnate partially.

I do find that bias and predisposition can be dealt with affectively by strict textual analysis. That is if the person one is speaking to doesn't walk away.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Which is the sad truth. When I first read the bible I read it with the preconceived idea that God was this invisible bodiless being, and all verses explaining him having a body and being incarnate I interpreted as metaphor. Then, when asking myself why I believed such an idea, I tried finding proof for my view in the scriptures and found that the book doesnt say that God does not have hands and a body and couldn't incarnate partially.

This is why clergy doesn't want you to ask too many questions.

 

[Samael_Khan]

SOME Jews were involved in Jesus' persecution. SOME Romans convicted him and nailed him up too. Do we hate Italians for their part?

Many Jews became his followers if you believe the NT. Some were even priests.

Ultimately, Christian doctrine says the Jesus died because of ALL OUR sins.

Exactly. Those who persecuted Jews persecuted all of them for what a few did, and somehow forgot that their faith was started by Jews. It seems to be the nature of many people. If a few belonging to a certain group do something, then vilify the lot of them because the persecutors want to dehumanize them and see them all as the enemy.

The question is then, if a few Jews didn't persecute the Christians, would Christians have persecuted Jews at all? And how much did their isolation of themselves from the rest of society contribute to that? And were they even being Christian by persecuting others?

 

[Samael_Khan]

This is why clergy doesn't want you to ask too many questions.

Exactly. When people did start asking too many questions, the Reformation happened.