Islam and Judaism are refuted.

[dybmh]

If "Judaism is following the correct God" then one has to wonder why for 2,000 years
the Jews were outcast from Israel and subjected to unprecedented persecution?

Perhaps the distinction is not whether Judaism is or is not correct.

According to the story, being outcast and persecuted is a result of not following the law. The fault could be in how the people behave and not the religion itself.

But to the larger point:

It seems to me that a lot of the scriptural evidence provided by Christians to show Jesus as the messiah of the Old Testament requires that the individual believe in Jesus first. For example, the list of verses provided from Isaiah are not meaningful unless a person believes in Jesus. If they do, then the verses confirm that belief. But to an outsider, they are not convincing. The same is true for virtually all scriptural evidence that Jesus is the messiah that is alluded to in the Old Testament.

 

[sooda]

Perhaps the distinction is not whether Judaism is or is not correct.

According to the story, being outcast and persecuted is a result of not following the law. The fault could be in how the people behave and not the religion itself.

But to the larger point:

It seems to me that a lot of the scriptural evidence provided by Christians to show Jesus as the messiah of the Old Testament requires that the individual believe in Jesus first. For example, the list of verses provided from Isaiah are not meaningful unless a person believes in Jesus. If they do, then the verses confirm that belief. But to an outsider, they are not convincing. The same is true for virtually all scriptural evidence that Jesus is the messiah that is alluded to in the Old Testament.

Isaiah is talking about king ahaz.. and about Israel not Jesus. Jesus was never an anointed king.

 

[stvdv]

Correct me if I am wrong but some held that the bible was of
early medieval origin. The scrolls demonstrated the Old
Testament did go back before Jesus,and that the text was
fairly faithful to the modern bible.

Still verses written down by someone. I don't belief something written down by others BLINDLY. I use my common sense and discrimination.

 

[oldbadger]

The seventh chapter of Isaiah cannot be a prophecy about Jesus’ virgin birth because it suggests that the prophecy was to have been fulfilled in Ahaz’s lifetime, some 700 years before Jesus.

@PruePhillip
@Rival
@oldbadger

OK.
I don't think that Jesus was born of a virgin. But if Mary was a Levite girl, and living in Zippori, since Zippori was mostly Hellenised (Hellenic?) she could have been a Temple Virgin, who got top know a handworker who lived on Nazareth.

It's all speculation......

 

[Wandering Monk]

Multiple authors seem to be problematic. Look at Genesis.

Every author has a unique style that can be discovered using computer algorithms. It would be interesting to see this method applied to the books of the Bible.

 

[sooda]

OK.
I don't think that Jesus was born of a virgin. But if Mary was a Levite girl, and living in Zippori, since Zippori was mostly Hellenised (Hellenic?) she could have been a Temple Virgin, who got top know a handworker who lived on Nazareth.

It's all speculation......

Well, IMO you can't completely change scripture and claim its a prophecy about Jesus.. I am a Christian and I find that very dishonest and offensive.. That's what they have done with Isaiah and Daniel.

 

[Wandering Monk]

If Jesus was a Jew then he would have been recognized. From what I've heard Jesus had very little knowledge of Judaism and could never have been a rabbi.

Been studying this for 25 years. Some of the NT accounts show a familiarity Jewish law and rabbinics that are found later in the Mishnah.

 

[PruePhillip]

Still verses written down by someone. I don't belief something written down by others BLINDLY. I use my common sense and discrimination.

Not blindly, no. What I find important is the prophecies concerning Israel
and the Messiah. The Jews certainly found the idea of Messiah as a
suffering redeemer strange, and the thought of them losing their nation
because they reject him was offensive.

 

[oldbadger]

Well, IMO you can't completely change scripture and claim its a prophecy about Jesus..

It's possible.

I am a Christian and I find that very dishonest and offensive..

It's simply a possibility, and you need to know that some extreme Christians can seem very dishonest and offensive to me.
It's best keep a cool head on RF forums.

That's what they have done with Isaiah and Daniel.

I don't read either.
If I did I might be tying those books in with Islam and Bahai..... Christianity long since redundant??

But I don't.

 

[sooda]

Not blindly, no. What I find important is the prophecies concerning Israel
and the Messiah. The Jews certainly found the idea of Messiah as a
suffering redeemer strange, and the thought of them losing their nation
because they reject him was offensive.

The Suffering Servant in Isaiah is Israel.. not Jesus.. You can't suddenly change scripture. Israel is referred to as God's servant all the way thru Isaiah.

Christians should at least try to be honest.

 

[rosends]

Been studying this for 25 years. Some of the NT accounts show a familiarity Jewish law and rabbinics that are found later in the Mishnah.

Or, according to Jewish belief, earlier in the mishna.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Or, according to Jewish belief, earlier in the mishna.

Point taken. The Mishnah contains material predating Jesus by hundreds of years.

 

[pearl]

If Jesus was a Jew then he would have been recognized. From what I've heard Jesus had very little knowledge of Judaism and could never have been a rabbi.

Then you should question your source.

Jewish exegetes who read the NT with 'Jewish eyes through Jewish glasses' emphasize that Jesus is speaking completely within the confines of the arguments of Judaism of his time. Hearing a sharp antithesis between the Jewish Torah and Christian ethics from Jesus' lips is only possible if it is accepted that the presumption that Christian doctrine is superior to Jewish doctrine stretches the expression 'you have heard that it is said....I say to you' to the absurd.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Then you should question your source.

Jewish exegetes who read the NT with 'Jewish eyes through Jewish glasses' emphasize that Jesus is speaking completely within the confines of the arguments of Judaism of his time. Hearing a sharp antithesis between the Jewish Torah and Christian ethics from Jesus' lips is only possible if it is accepted that the presumption that Christian doctrine is superior to Jewish doctrine stretches the expression 'you have heard that it is said....I say to you' to the absurd.

It was actually one of our Jewish members that had posted a very interesting thread regarding Jesus's poor knowledge of Judaism with provided examples, but for the life of me I can't find it in the archives.

 

[sooda]

It was actually one of our Jewish members that had posted a very interesting thread regarding Jesus's poor knowledge of Judaism with provided examples, but for the life of me I can't find it in the archives.

Remember the basics.. Jesus was a "rube" from Israel and they were despised by Judah. Never mind that Israel was more prosperous and more cosmopolitan..

 

[Wandering Monk]

Then you should question your source.

Jewish exegetes who read the NT with 'Jewish eyes through Jewish glasses' emphasize that Jesus is speaking completely within the confines of the arguments of Judaism of his time. Hearing a sharp antithesis between the Jewish Torah and Christian ethics from Jesus' lips is only possible if it is accepted that the presumption that Christian doctrine is superior to Jewish doctrine stretches the expression 'you have heard that it is said....I say to you' to the absurd.

You have heard....but I say" was a common way for a rabbi to introduce his interpretation of a commandment of the Torah.

A tanna recited before R. Johanan: All the slaughterings may be performed by a lay Israelite with the exception of that of the [red] heifer. R. Johanan said to him: Go out and teach it in the street! We do not find that slaughtering is disqualified [if performed] by a lay Israelite. Nor would R. Johanan not listen only to a tanna [in this matter] he would not even listen to his own master, for, whereas R. Johanan said in the name of R. Simeon b. Jehozadak: The slaughtering of the heifer by a lay Israelite is invalid [he added]: But I say, it is valid, for we do not find that slaughtering [of sacrifices] by a lay Israelite is invalid. - Talmud, Yoma 43b


But it is taught: R. Judah said: Meir used to say: One may immerse in the top one, but I say: [One may immerse only] in the bottom one, but not in the top one! He replied: If it is [expressly] taught, it is taught. - Talmud, Chagigah 19b

Raba said to Rabbah b. Mari: Whence can be derived the lesson taught by our Rabbis that one who solicits mercy for his fellow while he himself is in need of the same thing, [will be answered first]? — He replied: As it is written: And the Lord changed the fortune of Job when he prayed for his friends. He said to him: You say it is from that text, but I say it is from this text: ‘And Abraham prayed unto God and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maidservants,’ and immediately after it Says: And the Lord remembered Sarah as he had said, etc., [i.e.] as Abraham had [prayed and] said regarding Abimelech. - Talmud Baba Kama 92a

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh dear. Isaiah 53 is all about Israel.

Why do you think that?
Every verse has either "he" or "him" in it.
How can that be about Israel?

 

[Wandering Monk]

Why do you think that?
Every verse has either "he" or "him" in it.
How can that be about Israel?

Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant

 

[dybmh]

You have heard....but I say" was a common way for a rabbi to introduce his interpretation of a commandment of the Torah.

A tanna recited before R. Johanan: All the slaughterings may be performed by a lay Israelite with the exception of that of the [red] heifer. R. Johanan said to him: Go out and teach it in the street! We do not find that slaughtering is disqualified [if performed] by a lay Israelite. Nor would R. Johanan not listen only to a tanna [in this matter] he would not even listen to his own master, for, whereas R. Johanan said in the name of R. Simeon b. Jehozadak: The slaughtering of the heifer by a lay Israelite is invalid [he added]: But I say, it is valid, for we do not find that slaughtering [of sacrifices] by a lay Israelite is invalid. - Talmud, Yoma 43b


But it is taught: R. Judah said: Meir used to say: One may immerse in the top one, but I say: [One may immerse only] in the bottom one, but not in the top one! He replied: If it is [expressly] taught, it is taught. - Talmud, Chagigah 19b

Raba said to Rabbah b. Mari: Whence can be derived the lesson taught by our Rabbis that one who solicits mercy for his fellow while he himself is in need of the same thing, [will be answered first]? — He replied: As it is written: And the Lord changed the fortune of Job when he prayed for his friends. He said to him: You say it is from that text, but I say it is from this text: ‘And Abraham prayed unto God and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maidservants,’ and immediately after it Says: And the Lord remembered Sarah as he had said, etc., [i.e.] as Abraham had [prayed and] said regarding Abimelech. - Talmud Baba Kama 92a

What do you think? Do you think using the phrase, "But I say" or "I say to you" is significant?

To me it sounds equivalent to "In my opinion".

 

[sooda]

Why do you think that?
Every verse has either "he" or "him" in it.
How can that be about Israel?

Read it.. Israel is HIM. God's suffering servant.

Not to make light of it, but read all of Isaiah 53.

Jesus wasn't despised of men.. By all accounts people flocked to hear Jesus speak.

Isaiah 53 ascribes the “servant” as the nation of Israel who silently endured unimaginable suffering at the hands of its gentile oppressors.

While the original Hebrew text clearly refers to the Jewish people as the “Suffering Servant,” over the centuries Isaiah 53 has become a cornerstone of the Christian claim that Jesus is the Messiah. Unfortunately, this claim is based on widespread mistranslations and distortion of context.

In order to properly understand these verses, one must read the original Hebrew text. When the Bible is translated into other languages, it loses much of its essence. The familiar King James translation uses language which is archaic and difficult for the modern reader. Furthermore, it is not rooted in Jewish sources and often goes against traditional Jewish teachings. Modern translations, while more readable, are often even more divorced from the true meaning of the text.

Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant

Read ALL of Isaiah and decide for yourself.