Islam and Judaism are refuted.

[Trailblazer]

OK - let me enlighten you - In Mein Kampf, he wrote of the Jew: "His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine" and then "hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Thanks, I did not know that about Hitler, but I do not agree with him. It was not his job to do the Lord's work. Besides that, innocent Jews did not deserve to suffer because of what the Jewish clerics did 2000 years before that..

I'm sure you're right - not pretty at all...but in all fairness, I think you should quote Baha'u'llah if you are pinning antisemitism on him - let him speak for himself rather than you putting words in his mouth for him - don't you think...so where does Baha'u'llah blame God for the suffering of the Jews?

To get the full benefit you have to read the entire passage which is too long to post. It is on the link below. Read it and then tell me how unfair Baha'u'llah was.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 17-27

 

[Shad]

It was also found that the found Isaiah scroll is completely identical with the book of Isaiah in the Bible. This proves firstly that at least the book of Isaiah was not falsified,

No it doesn't. If one copies a forgery the copy does not prove the forgery is actually authentic.

 

[Trailblazer]

As long as people do not attempt to execute the will of God thru violence, dominance, and harming others?

True, because that would never be the will of God.

 

[siti]

To get the full benefit you have to read the entire passage which is too long to post. It is on the link below. Read it and then tell me how unfair Baha'u'llah was.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 17-27

Well based on that passage, the same criticism can be levelled at Christians who believe there could be no Messenger after Jesus and Muslims who believe Muhammad to have been the final one...and even Baha'is who deny that God could bring a new Messenger in less than 1000 years from Baha'u'llah ... all of them have "chained the hands of God" in favour of their own Messenger...so presumably they can all expect to "suffer at the hands of Almighty God" as well.

 

[siti]

As long as people do not attempt to execute the will of God thru violence, dominance, and harming others?

True, because that would never be the will of God.

Good God! Have you ever read the Bible or the Qur'an - have you ever read the Mahabharata?

 

[Trailblazer]

Well based on that passage, the same criticism can be levelled at Christians who believe there could be no Messenger after Jesus and Muslims who believe Muhammad to have been the final one...and even Baha'is who deny that God could bring a new Messenger in less than 1000 years from Baha'u'llah ... all of them have "chained the hands of God" in favour of their own Messenger...so presumably they can all expect to "suffer at the hands of Almighty God" as well.

It could be leveled at Christians and Muslims but they have not missed as many Messengers as the Jews. Christians have only missed three, and Muslims have only missed two. Jews have missed four.

It cannot be leveled at the Baha'is because Baha'u'llah wrote that there can be no new Messengers in less than 1000 years, so they have not chained God's hands, since that comes from God's mouth.

Christians and Muslims have suffered and will continue to suffer at the hands of Almighty God but Baha'is haven't suffered since they have not rejected any of God's Messengers.

 

[Trailblazer]

Good God! Have you ever read the Bible or the Qur'an - have you ever read the Mahabharata?

Do you think it was the will of God that they resort to violence?

 

[siti]

Jews have missed four.

Five...no...six...

 

[siti]

Do you think it was the will of God that they resort to violence?

According to Krishna and Moses definitely...and if you think those accounts are unreliable, how do you know these people even existed?

 

[YoursTrue]

PruePhilip was saying that Judaism is flawed. The evidence provided was persecution and outcast.

I am saying that the persecution and outcast could be from a different cause. There are several possible causes.

One possible cause could be a flaw in the religion itself ( this is PruePhillip's claim ). PruePhillip is saying that persecution and outcast are caused by denying Jesus as LORD and savior. This would be, according to PruePhillip, a fault in the religion or the religious beliefs of Jewish people.

Another possible cause could be the behavior of Jewish people not following the Law as described in the Old Testament. This is detailed in Deuteronomy. ( This is what I proposed as a plausible counter argument). If this is the actual cause, then the Jewish religion is not at fault, because, the Jewish religion speaks about outcast and persecution as a result of ignoring the law.

There are other possible causes that aren't scriptural. The reason I brought this possible cause is because it is scriptural in origin. And in this way PruePhillip and I are discussing apples to apples. I could have spoken about the political reasons that Jewish people were expelled from the Land. And I could have spoken about human nature and in-group vs. out-group psychology. The Jewish people are often stereotyped and demonized like many other demographic groups. It could be that the outcast and persecution occurred for no religious reasons at all.

Does this answer your question?

Yes and no. But thanks anyway for trying. The Law was not imperfect. God gave the Law through Moses. God allowed punishment for the nation when they egregiously stepped beyond His overlooking the mishaps. And of course, here's what I say now: it's been how many years since the temple has been torn down and not built up again? And, of course, don't leave out about the idea of what some think is necessary for future revival -- that of "unity."

 

[Trailblazer]

Five...no...six...

I meant the four who came after Moses, but you are right that they missed some others who came before.

 

[Trailblazer]

According to Krishna and Moses definitely...and if you think those accounts are unreliable, how do you know these people even existed?

I do not know if the accounts were reliable or not
I know they existed because Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha said so.

 

[siti]

I meant the four who came after Moses, but you are right that they missed some others who came before.

I meant there were at least five - possibly six - who came after Moses - but I get that Baha'i chronology and Manifestatory succession are confused...

Anyway, according to tradition and scholarly opinion, Moses lived (if he ever lived at all) sometime between about the 13th to the 16th century BCE...after Moses came Zoroaster and after him Buddha...and goodness knows where Krishna fits in (certainly before Buddha, probably before all the others but not sure if there is any genuine trace of him earlier than the 16th century BCE)...but certainly the other two were (by all accounts) later than Moses and earlier than Jesus. So not only did the Jews miss them, but so did the Christians, and the Muslims...the Zoroastrians missed all the others and Buddha pretty well rejected all the others without specifically mentioning any of them...it seems manifest to me that the Manifestations were manifestly not so obviously manifest to one another as one of the Manifestations manifestly manifested.

 

[Trailblazer]

I meant there were at least five - possibly six - who came after Moses - but I get that Baha'i chronology and Manifestatory succession are confused...

Anyway, according to tradition and scholarly opinion, Moses lived (if he ever lived at all) sometime between about the 13th to the 16th century BCE...after Moses came Zoroaster and after him Buddha...and goodness knows where Krishna fits in (certainly before Buddha, probably before all the others but not sure if there is any genuine trace of him earlier than the 16th century BCE)...but certainly the other two were (by all accounts) later than Moses and earlier than Jesus. So not only did the Jews miss them, but so did the Christians, and the Muslims...the Zoroastrians missed all the others and Buddha pretty well rejected all the others without specifically mentioning any of them...it seems manifest to me that the Manifestations were manifestly not so obviously manifest to one another as one of the Manifestations manifestly manifested.

Thanks for the edification on the timeline.
Lots of religions missed lots of Manifestations, that's for certain.
But I do not think the Manifestations missed each other because they were all one soul and the same person.

“The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 50

 

[siti]

I do not know if the accounts were reliable or not

Not.

I know they existed because Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha said so.

So credulity then.

Lots of religions missed lots of Manifestations, that's for certain.

So how do you know that the Baha'i religion hasn't missed some as well?

 

[Trailblazer]

So credulity then.

No, I just knew the Baha'i Faith was true right away, and initially it had little to do with Baha'u'llah, it was the principles and teachings. Only much later when I got interested in God did I start reading more of what Baha'u'llah wrote about God and it was then that I was convinced that there was a God, and it has been an uphill battle since then.

So how do you know that the Baha'i religion hasn't missed some as well?

There may very well be some that have not been mentioned... Only the major Manifestations have been listed.

 

[siti]

There may very well be some that have not been mentioned... Only the major Manifestations have been listed.

So will God punish Baha'is for rejecting the ones they fail to mention? Or will they all ultimately be forgiven for their oversights and welcomed into the "unity in diversity" paradise with everyone else?

 

[YoursTrue]

As long as people do not attempt to execute the will of God thru violence, dominance, and harming others?

Which God? and how would they know what God wants them to execute?

 

[BilliardsBall]

If "Judaism is following the correct God" then one has to wonder why for 2,000 years
the Jews were outcast from Israel and subjected to unprecedented persecution?

Did you know the OT predicts that this is exactly what would occur?! This is outstanding proof of Bible reliability:

 

[PruePhillip]

Did you know the OT predicts that this is exactly what would occur?! This is outstanding proof of Bible reliability:

Of course Says that God will call the Jews out of the nations that were their "graves."
That's seriously interesting, given the persecution they faced.

And for reliability - read Jacob's blessing to Judah - one day there will be a Jewish
nation with a monarchy and the law, but it will end with the Messiah.
And the two verses in Zechariah which address the Jewish idea of the Messiah
as one who would rule over the nations - says this conqueror was meek and rode
upon a colt, and the Jews would see his pierced hands.