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Islam and Heaven - Ive got a Question i really want answered.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Steve, Mar 15, 2005.

  1. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Ok ive been informed that this part of the forum is where i should post the following thread :)

    Ive heard a Muslim goes to heaven if they do more good then bad and if Allah shows them Grace. Is this correct?
    If so does this mean that Allah compromises on sin and "lets people of the hook"? Lets people into heaven even though they have done wrong? If this is the case I dont understand how Allah can be considered good, righteous and just. I guess id see it like the Muslim offers Allah a bribe in that they want Allah to overlook there crime because they did some good. If i murder or steal and my only defence is most of the time i do good, does that make me any less guilty of the times that i did wrong? When does all the lies and theft etc get made right? when is justice served, do you belive that your good enough to get to heaven via your own righeosness?

    Imagine this senario in a courtroom just on earth - Somone murderes somone close to you and are they are Arrested, they are taken to court to meet the judge to see that justice is served. They stand and state there defence "that was the only person i ever killed and im really sorry and just look at all the other people i havnt killed, ive obeyed the law more then ive disobeyed it" Then the judge says "well i guess your right you have obeyed the law more then you have disobeyed it" and then lets the person go free.
    Would you consider that judge to be corrupt? Did that Judge really make sure justice was served? Is that judge a good just judge?
    Keep in mind God knows everything we have done wrong and if he is just he should bring to justice all the things he knows we have done wrong. How can he tolarate sin? if he dosn't punish it just like the judge in the courtroom he is no longer Good and Just.
     
  2. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    A true God wouldn't be stupid enough to condemn someone who had only carried out minor crimes, "My word! You stole a penny sweet when you were six years old, to hell with you damnable vermin!" It may only be a penny sweet but it is still the sin of theft, a real God would not damn you for eternity for that.
    I can guarantee that everybody has sin, every time you go see something of a friends and think "Hmm... I wish i had that." Bang! you coverted their possessions, straight to hell with you! No, God isn't that dumb. As God he has the ability to say "Well you did shop lift a few times, but you do feel guilty and repentant about that, plus you've never actually hurt anyone intentionally so yes you can come in."
    As for murder, i doubt God would let you into heaven for that even if you were really good the rest of the time, but then he'd still look at your case, he's not a blind God - like if you killed someone in a blind rage after they ran over your small child, i can easily imagine God would be sympathetic.
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I could't agree more; I always think of 'God' having some scales; all the bad bits go on one side, the good bits on the other, and we see which comes out heavier! The murder bit is hard, I admit - that's in a class of it's own; perhaps God has a different set of scales for that kind of sin!!!:jiggy:
     
  4. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    So you think that what we see as a "minor crime" God also sees the same way? Do you think God is going to judge us by our standard or by his? If God is Holy, Just, Righeous and Good then he surely sees our sin in a different light to us! Do you think people would be permitted to steal at all in heaven? If so how would it be heaven?
    A "real God" as you put it would make sure that heaven is perfect and will make sure that perfect justice is served.

    I certainly agree that we have all sinned. Thanks for making that clear :)

    How does simply feeling guilty and wishing you hadnt done it make it all right? How does your guilt depend on weather you hurt somone else or not? God judges us by our hearts not the outcome of what we do.
    He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight. Luke 16:15
    Im not sure weather you belive the bible but dosnt the scripture make sense wheather you belive the whole bible or not?

    No he is not a blind God he has seen every one of our secret desires no matter how unclean, how could he possible let people into heaven considering what they have done just because the dont always do wrong?

    If we want to be able to stand befor God and meet his righteous and just requirements we are able too but it is not thanks to ourselves.

    This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:22-24
     
  5. meogi

    meogi Well-Known Member

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    I think the problem is you're compairing two different gods... Islam's god doesn't have to follow the same rules/juding perameters that the Christian god does. Christian god judges through Jesus Chirst, Islamic god judges through deeds. I don't see a problem here.
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    "same rules/juding perameters"
    Islam excepts the 10 commandments as given by Moses as far as i know.
    and besides would you argue that Allah dosnt see Lying as wrong? or stealing? or murder?

    It dosnt matter weather im talking abaout the God of the Bible or Allah.
    They are both considered Holy, Good, Righteous and Just by their followers but my question is; if Allah compromises on sin and "lets people of the hook"? Lets people into heaven even though they have done wrong? how can Allah can be considered holy, good, righteous and just.
     
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  7. meogi

    meogi Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure Allah would take those case by case. As would any just god.
    I guess I should ask then, how has Allah compromised on sin? Can you show that a lifetime of good deeds has whiped away an innocents murder? Where exactly does it say that all deeds are equal in Allah's eyes?
     
  8. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Are we not reflections of God? Were we not made in His image? I give God credit for having common sense, if i steal a sweet no-one really cares, it doesn't really hurt anyone, if i steal a car then it does affect people and cause them anguish.

    Exactly, i can't see how you can argue with me if you accept this. If we do something wrong, then its too late, its already happened. God will look in our hearts, if he sees regret and guilt he will realise we have good hearts, if he sees only pleasure at the wrong act or not caring at all then he sees an evil heart - people with good hearts should enter heaven. I feel sorry for you if you think the good should be condemned for small, often one off, mistakes.:(

    So if we have all sinned then none of us are getting into heaven, God's gonna get pretty lonely up there then. Also what's the point in worshipping God if we're already going to hell, according to you he won't change his mind no matter what we do???
     
  9. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Like i told you in the other thread, it is based on intent. Islam teaches that God holds each person responsible for his deeds. It does not teach that you can do anything you want because there was a human sacrifice. why did Jesus tell people to go and sin no more if we can just pawn off our sins on him when we die? it makes no sense. the idea of God taking away all our sins seems insane to me. does that mean there is no hell? everyone will be equal because no one has any bad deeds and we will all live in paradise? that would be ideal, but i do not believe it and it goes against what EVERY prophet has ever taught, including Jesus.
     
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  10. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Lying, stealing, and murder are typically wrong, but it depends on intent. if i lie to someone because it is the only way to get him to do something, and it saves lives, then was that lie evil or good?????
    if i steal an antidote from a vet's office that is closed and give it to someone just bitten by a snake to save his life, is that an evil or good act of theft????
    if i kill someone getting ready to push the button to blow up a McDonalds would that be considered a good or bad deed????
    most deeds by themselves are not good or bad. circumstances have to be evaluated.
     
  11. Peace

    Peace Quran & Sunnah

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    Peace be with you,

    Allah the Almighty has bestowed on us the bounty of intellect. Intellect entails responsibility, so every adult sane person is responsible for his/her own acts. If a person does good deeds s/he will be rewarded for that, and if s/he does bad deeds s/he will be punished for that in case s/he didn’t repent.
    We as human beings are not perfect, we do make mistake and we are always in need of forgiveness. Actually we do need God’s forgiveness as well as human forgiveness, for we do wrong in our relation with Allah as well as in our relation with each other.

    God’s Mercy and forgiveness are so great, for He is the most Forgiving the most Merciful. We are in need of His forgiveness and Mercy all the time. Also among the attributes of God is that He is JUST, and He is the Just judge who will judge us in the day of resurrection. All our deeds on this earth are recorded in our book of reckoning. God will not inflict undue punishment on any person and He will not overlook the good deeds of any person however small the good deed is. But if God wants to forgive any sinner He has full freedom to do that, for His Mercy is unlimited and His Love is infinite, all praise to Him the Merciful! In one of the prayers that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him taught is “O Allah, You are most Forgiving One, You love to forgive, so forgive me.” (reported by al-Trimidhi and Ibn Majah). And many verses in the Quran show the love, mercy and forgiveness of our Merciful God.

    Since we do expect God’s mercy and forgivenss we must learn to forgive those who do wrong to us. Forgiving the others is one of the most important Islamic teaching. In the Quran Allah describes the believers as “those who avoid major sins and acts of indecencies and when they are angry they forgive.” (al-Shura 42:37)
    In Islam if one sins and asks forgiveness from God for that sin and he/she repents faithfully to God, having no intention to return back to sin, his/her repentence will be accepted and his/her sin will be forgiven and s/he will be like a newly born person.
    The Merciful God says in the Quran "And whoever does evil or wrongs himself and then seeks forgiveness from Allah, he shall find Allah, All-Forgiving, All-Merciful" (4:110)
    Allah also says:"And they who do not call upon another god with Allah and do not slay the soul, which Allah has forbidden except in the requirements of justice, and (who) do not commit fornication and he who does this shall find a requital of sin; (But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy,- Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful" (25:68-70)


    May our dear Merciful God forgive us and guide our ways, ameen!!
    Peace
     
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  12. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Ok so does that mean that because his "Mercy is unlimited and His Love is infinite" he is able to be unjust? If someone is guilty of sinning they are guilty, no if's no buts, The idea that our good erases our bad is illogical, if ive stolen something then not stealing somthing tomorow dosnt hide my guilt. We should do good simply because its good to do so.

    Ok so he is very forgiving but on what grounds can he forgive and still be just? If your god is so Just then when is Justice being served? Those who ask for forgivness acknowledge their guilt, how can you then say that a just God can let your sin go unpunished without being unjust? Like i said befor if ive stolen something then not stealing somthing tomorow dosnt hide my guilt. Being Just means making sure that Justice is served does it not?
     
  13. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    You are DAMN right! If someone is guilty, they are guilty alright. Every itsy bitsy bad things that we do will get its payment later in the Day of Judgement, and every itsy bitsy good things that we do will also get its payment later in the Day of Judgement. Islam NEVER teaches us that good can erase bad. Like what you said, if you've stolen something, then not stealing something tomorrow doesn't hide your guilt. You are right my man!

    The idea of stealing something today and something tomorrow does not hide your guilt is not equivalent to: God forgives someone who akcnowledge their guilt and promises to never do that again. God is just because he knows that us human cannot be clean from sins or mistakes, thus God gives us forgiveness to whom are really sorry for their mistakes and promise not to do it again. God gives us the chance to improve ourselves and come back to God's path. If that human's not sorry for what he/she have done, then he gets punished.
     
  14. Albino

    Albino Member

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    I could be wrong, but aren't Gods promises of salvation rooted in the Old Testament? Doesn't he promise a redeemer?

    I can see how the new testament is an extention of this...the promised redeemer is supposed to be Christ.

    But I don't see how Islam is an extention of the OT. I mean, Islam claims to accept the OT, yet they don't look for a redeemer. They claim Christ was merely a "prophet" yet they don't listen to him. Makes no sence to me.
     
  15. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    Islam is man's attempt to establish righteousness by his works or deeds. Christianity is God's attempt to give all people the opputunity to inherit eternal life through faith according the grace that id given. example... more grace is manifested in Paul the apostle than in all the others because his sins were greater. He having been the ringleader in murdering Stephen and took the occasion to persecute and imprison and and tortue other Jews for having become Christians.

    Islam is Ishmeal's work a work of the flesh, unacceptable. Judiasm or the Law of Moses was given to condemn all men under sin and demonstrated the great lengths required to purify one from sin and its stain. Paul explains that Moses(the law) could never make men perfect. But of Jesus it say he has perfected forever them that are sanctified. The hidden man of the heart is recreated in the new birthand is dependant upon the word of God for bread, which is life. So that one born of the Spirit of God by Jesus Christ has new life in him. This new life is the new creature. He pleases God through service born out of Love, through faith and (patience) His heart searches for God in him .Verily God wants and is greatly worthy to be served by gods. This god is increased in you by planting the word of God in your heart day and night. Ps1:1-3 . You shall surely die like men but shall continue forever in the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  16. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    This God in you is Jesus Christ. It is truely awesome to think of Jesus in you but you can see him being formed in you just as a baby is formed in the womb. This world we are not to love but a new creature.
     
  17. andyjamal

    andyjamal servant

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    There is only one God; Christ and Muhammed are the Manifestation of that God. I understand that traditional Christians do not accept this concept, but the Quran affirms it. Therefore whether Islam is true or not there is still only one God.:)
     
  18. andyjamal

    andyjamal servant

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    Heaven is a relative term used to describe nearness to God. Good deeds draw us nearer to God. Therefore if one performs more good deeds than bad, s/he will be better off than if s/he performs more bad deeds than good. Either way there is consequence for every deed. For, bad deeds draw us further from God.
     
  19. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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  20. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Dosnt your own religious book say that your god is just? Is it true that if you are just you see to it that justice is served? That wrong is punished? Isnt that what the very term Just means? If you have a judge who lets a guilty person go free with out justice being server that judge is no longer just, he is unjust.
    Also if we are made in Gods image wouldnt our sense of justice be just a fraction of Gods? If mankind demands justice when it sees things happen that are wrong, how bad do you think a Holy, Righteous, Just God sees our sins?
     
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