islam and barbarity

[Looncall]

As far as I am aware, all muslim-majority societies suffer certain institutionalized dysfunctions such as torture, lack of freedom of speech, religious intolerance, racism, misogyny etc. (I would be delighted to learn of any that do not.)

This is often attributed to underlying culture, yet applies across disparate cultures (Afghan vs Indonesian, for example).

Given how islam is described by its adherents (eg "religion of peace"), and how decent individual muslims living among other peoples mostly are, all this seems inexplicable. What gives?

Does islam make societies barbarous, or is islam somehow particularly attractive to barbarians?

 

[Treks]

Maybe it's a third world / developing world problem?

If those countries were first world, do you think they'd have the same reputations?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

As far as I am aware, all muslim-majority societies suffer certain institutionalized dysfunctions such as torture, lack of freedom of speech, religious intolerance, racism, misogyny etc. (I would be delighted to learn of any that do not.)

This is often attributed to underlying culture, yet applies across disparate cultures (Afghan vs Indonesian, for example).

Given how islam is described by its adherents (eg "religion of peace"), and how decent individual muslims living among other peoples mostly are, all this seems inexplicable. What gives?

Does islam make societies barbarous, or is islam somehow particularly attractive to barbarians?

I think there's a combination of things going on. Muslims, individually, are not barbarians. Culturally, it's due primarily to a lack of education. Here's my view:

You have some Muslim clerics, who have this idea of an idealized Islamic state, and this is what they teach. Remember, most of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic, so most know very little of what's actually in the Quran. So they're going on basically just what they're taught by the clerics. So you have this small group, the clerics, who are teaching things that are actually contrary to Islam, and the majority of Muslims, who would not normally follow such nonsense, do, in fact, follow it, mostly because of lack of education, sometimes just of their own religion, sometimes of education in general.

This, to me, is one of the primary issues facing Islam today. It's by no means the only one, and there are other factors involved in the way it seems barbarism is rampant in predominantly Muslim nations.

 

[Looncall]

Maybe it's a third world / developing world problem?

If those countries were first world, do you think they'd have the same reputations?

Yet, it persists even in wealthy societies such as some in the middle east.

 

[Looncall]

I think there's a combination of things going on. Muslims, individually, are not barbarians. Culturally, it's due primarily to a lack of education. Here's my view:

You have some Muslim clerics, who have this idea of an idealized Islamic state, and this is what they teach. Remember, most of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic, so most know very little of what's actually in the Quran. So they're going on basically just what they're taught by the clerics. So you have this small group, the clerics, who are teaching things that are actually contrary to Islam, and the majority of Muslims, who would not normally follow such nonsense, do, in fact, follow it, mostly because of lack of education, sometimes just of their own religion, sometimes of education in general.

This, to me, is one of the primary issues facing Islam today. It's by no means the only one, and there are other factors involved in the way it seems barbarism is rampant in predominantly Muslim nations.

Thanks for this very helpful reply.

Why is it the supposed experts in the religion who are causing the trouble? I would have expected the opposite if islam is so peaceful etc.

 

[LuisDantas]

Or is it perhaps too centered on authority structures and lacking on tools to question and correct their decrees?

 

[LuisDantas]

Maybe it's a third world / developing world problem?

If those countries were first world, do you think they'd have the same reputations?

Personally, I don't think the strong central leadership expectations that Islam seems to demand are compatible with economic health.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think there's a combination of things going on. Muslims, individually, are not barbarians. Culturally, it's due primarily to a lack of education. Here's my view:

You have some Muslim clerics, who have this idea of an idealized Islamic state, and this is what they teach. Remember, most of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic, so most know very little of what's actually in the Quran. So they're going on basically just what they're taught by the clerics. So you have this small group, the clerics, who are teaching things that are actually contrary to Islam, and the majority of Muslims, who would not normally follow such nonsense, do, in fact, follow it, mostly because of lack of education, sometimes just of their own religion, sometimes of education in general.

This, to me, is one of the primary issues facing Islam today. It's by no means the only one, and there are other factors involved in the way it seems barbarism is rampant in predominantly Muslim nations.

While I agree with much of this, I have some strong disagreements as well.

First, there are simply way too many Muslims around, making too big a point of attempting to understand the Quran and to learn Arabic in order to understand it. I don't believe there is a critical failure to represent its contents, intentional or otherwise, so much as there is an exacerbation of expectation about its suitability for a variety of issues that are simply too subtle and complex to be solved by scripture study.

To me it is mostly a matter of human society having a strong bias towards seeking a "strong leader" and surrendering way too much of personal responsibility towards said leader.

Regardless of what the Quran says exactly, I very much doubt that any scripture can truly stand up to the fabulous expectations of the Muslim society of today. Yet Islam promises a solid, durable reference of harmony and purpose and that appeals too much for people to want to question it to the needed extent.

 

[rusra02]

As far as I am aware, all muslim-majority societies suffer certain institutionalized dysfunctions such as torture, lack of freedom of speech, religious intolerance, racism, misogyny etc. (I would be delighted to learn of any that do not.)

This is often attributed to underlying culture, yet applies across disparate cultures (Afghan vs Indonesian, for example).

Given how islam is described by its adherents (eg "religion of peace"), and how decent individual muslims living among other peoples mostly are, all this seems inexplicable. What gives?

Does islam make societies barbarous, or is islam somehow particularly attractive to barbarians?

Jesus taught the tree is identified by the fruit it bears. (Matthew 7:17-20) I do not believe you can divorce the religion from the barbarity of those who practice Islam, any more then you can divorce the barbarity of (false) Christians from their religion. Often, it is religious teachings that motivate their adherents to barbarous acts. I believe the Bible speaks of all such religions as a symbolic evil harlot, and tells us to get out of her. (Revelation 18:4) Revelation 18:24 says: "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

 

[Assad91]

As far as I am aware, all muslim-majority societies suffer certain institutionalized dysfunctions such as torture, lack of freedom of speech, religious intolerance, racism, misogyny etc. (I would be delighted to learn of any that do not.)

Would one be so bold to pretend we don't have such problems here in the West?

Holocaust denial can lead you in jail in some places.

And freedom of speech in America isn't as it seems, if you are the wrong color and say the wrong things. Think back in Mccarthy era, or with COINTELPRO. Or even today when a Muslim says something that can be seen as "Anti-American"

And torture? Well, lets not bring up American torture of suspected terrorist

Racism? Misogyny? Yeah we don't still have that in America or the West

 

[Looncall]

Would one be so bold to pretend we don't have such problems here in the West?

Holocaust denial can lead you in jail in some places.

And freedom of speech in America isn't as it seems, if you are the wrong color and say the wrong things. Think back in Mccarthy era, or with COINTELPRO. Or even today when a Muslim says something that can be seen as "Anti-American"

And torture? Well, lets not bring up American torture of suspected terrorist

Racism? Misogyny? Yeah we don't still have that in America or the West

I don't buy your argument.

The difference lies in whether or not these evils are regarded as normal and enshrined in laws. For example, one of our muslim friends here clearly expects to be beaten up by the police in his country as a matter of course. While that may happen occasionally in the US, it is not routinely expected and is expected to be punished.

In muslim countries, things like religious intolerance and sex-based oppression are actually part of the legal system.

 

[Assad91]

I don't buy your argument.

The difference lies in whether or not these evils are regarded as normal and enshrined in laws. For example, one of our muslim friends here clearly expects to be beaten up by the police in his country as a matter of course. While that may happen occasionally in the US, it is not routinely expected and is expected to be punished.

In muslim countries, things like religious intolerance and sex-based oppression are actually part of the legal system.

Oh, I forgot, its been about what, 20 years since things "changed". Even today rape victims still get blamed for the rape. The punishments might not be the same, but the underlying problem is.

How much does poverty affect the minorities?

How long ago did Blacks expect to get beaten by cops? And how much has racial profiling changed?


Don't buy the argument. Plenty of people now the hypocrisy you are pushing.

 

[credance]

Islam and Barbarity or Geo-political climate?
Desperate people do desperate and sometimes foolish things.
For example I will use the "Great United States of America" because We are suppossed to represent All cultures throughout the globe.
Sadly, we are falling behind because many of the global cultures know how to better educate their children. It is true that we offer some of the best education on earth but it is reserved for the elitist and occassionaly for the most talented. Where does that leave the rest of us? Practical skills are not offered in primary schooling. That leaves the service jobs that require minimal skills. There are practially no manufactering jobs for the less skilled.
When you eliminated the middle class who actually pay for services rendered the well dries up and people begin to get desperate and then ****** off.
With our lack of education we are easily manipulated into believing the propaganda that is fed to us through media that is funded by billionaire special interest groups.
If you don't believe me, go to some "Occupy" or "Tea Party" rally and watch the sheep being led to the slaughter.
I think religious beliefs are less or more important when we are broke, homeless, or worried about a bomb going off in our little world.
I believe in capitalism in a sense that when a man works hard he is rewarded for it. Not in the sense that he can be crushed by rich, trust fund babies who have never worked a day in their life.
When the ultra rich finally have all the money and start handing it out at $8.00 an hour the barbarity we see now is only a prelude of things to come.
Besides that, labor has no glory anymore. Leisure and getting something for nothing is portrait to be what smart people do. If you have to work and sweat you must be a loser. It is good that Chinese are willing to work and make us "stuff".

 

[Satan's Right Hand Man]

Islam is barbaric. Muhammad had a 9 year old wife, those guys in yemen marry children, and they believe that blowing innocent people up will make positive political and social change in their country and the world.

 

[Satan's Right Hand Man]

Islam and Barbarity or Geo-political climate?

Or Climate!

Read this:

"A new meta study connects rising world temperatures with aggressive acts of violence and even war. The research has determined there to be a statistical relationship between the two phenomena." source: guardianlv(dot)com/2013/08/statistical-relationship-between-heat-and-violence-found/

This would explain why things are the way they are in Africa and the Middle East!

It's no surprise then that the Vikings were such gentle people.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Or Climate!

Read this:

"A new meta study connects rising world temperatures with aggressive acts of violence and even war. The research has determined there to be a statistical relationship between the two phenomena." source: guardianlv(dot)com/2013/08/statistical-relationship-between-heat-and-violence-found/

This would explain why things are the way they are in Africa and the Middle East!

It's no surprise then that the Vikings were such gentle people.

In the dark ages it would not have mattered what man did. the world population was minute.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Jesus taught the tree is identified by the fruit it bears. (Matthew 7:17-20) I do not believe you can divorce the religion from the barbarity of those who practice Islam, any more then you can divorce the barbarity of (false) Christians from their religion. Often, it is religious teachings that motivate their adherents to barbarous acts. I believe the Bible speaks of all such religions as a symbolic evil harlot, and tells us to get out of her. (Revelation 18:4) Revelation 18:24 says: "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Nice hypocrisy! And the no true Scotsman fallacy makes an appearance!

 

[gilligan8914]

Ask anyone in an islamic republic what happens to a muslim who converts to christianity and tells others about it. Islam is not a religion, but a culture based upon ancient arab tribal law. Out of 1.4 billion muslims about 800 million are illiterate. Half of arab women cannot read. Only about 1% of arabs have a personal computer. Six of the poorest countries in the world are countries with muslim majorities. Islam prospers best in places with uneducated and illiterate people.

 

[Assad91]

Ask anyone in an islamic republic what happens to a muslim who converts to christianity and tells others about it. Islam is not a religion, but a culture based upon ancient arab tribal law. Out of 1.4 billion muslims about 800 million are illiterate. Half of arab women cannot read. Only about 1% of arabs have a personal computer. Six of the poorest countries in the world are countries with muslim majorities. Islam prospers best in places with uneducated and illiterate people.

Funny how you talk of arabs as if they are the majority of Muslims.

And you racist rant would make sense if Muslim countries were always poor. Yet history says otherwise.

 

[gilligan8914]

Not rants. Not racist. Just facts. I guess when all else fails you simply call people racists.