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ISIS as Salafī, or why this label is accurate

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It would be nice if your take is entirely correct.

Nice for sure, but also very irrelevant, since him being correct wouldn't change anything about the very real reality of islamic terrorism and jihadi militia's - who very very much are religiously inspired to do what they do.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Oh, not particularly.

I have commented on now Islam is the
source of terr ideology, and as it is that
god is great stuff they chant, rather than
something else, I kind of think I am right.
It's a complicated, facinating subject. I enjoyed discussing it with you. Have a nice day, Audie.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Salah Al-Ansari and Usama Hasan write:

‘It is as disingenuous to argue that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam, as it is to argue that “they are Islam per se”. Any intra-Muslim argument responding to jihadism will inevitably revolve around Islamic texts. Just as the Inquisition had something to do with Catholicism – and as will be abundantly clear in this work – ISIS has something to do with Islam. Not nothing, not everything, but clearly something.

'Refusing to name the islamist ideology only furthers blurring the lines between Islamism and the religion of Islam. Depriving people of a word to address an ideological phenomenon that is intuitively connected to Muslims, not only cedes linguistic clarity to those who insist that Islamism is Islam, it also deprives anti-islamist Muslims of a lexicon with which to distinguish themselves within and beyond their communities.

‘Some have asked: Why not use the word Wahhabism – Saudi Arabia's austere version of Islam – to describe this phenomenon? Though fundamentalists in their own right and in dire need of reform, not all Wahhabis are islamists. Just as not all islamists are Wahhabis. Hezbollah is a jihadist Shia — non-Wahhabi — organisation.

‘Similar in ways to the Amish in the US, in Saudi Arabia there are many Wahhabis who are ultrareligious conservatives, while remaining staunchly apolitical. This is in accordance to the teachings of one of their late religious leaders, the hadith scholar Shaikh Muhammad Nasir-ud-Din al-Albani. On the other hand, extremism is too general a word, and includes all forms of extremism. Being too broad, it precludes a specific response to the phenomenon being addressed. Islamism and Muslim fundamentalism therefore are the only accurate words that capture two concurrent problems within modern Muslim contexts: first, the desire to impose any version of Islam over society; and second, a rigid, intolerant adherence to medieval views on scripture. Till now, there have been no other alternative words presented that work.’ (‘Tackling Terror: A Response to Takfiri Terrorist Theology). My emphasis.


  1. Dangers of the Khawarij ideology of violence | Faith in ...
    Faith in Allah الإيمان باللهdangers-of-the-khawarij-ideology-of-violence
    The most dangerous sect in Islam are the Kharijites (al-khawārij). They have existed since the very early period of Islam and they will continue to cause strife in the Muslim nation until the end of time when they will join forces with the False Messiah (al-dajjāl). We must be aware of their ...
 

sooda

Veteran Member
One thing that baffles me about this is the prevailing notion that ISIS is somehow not a Muslim organization. It doesn't mean its an ideal Islamic group yet alone a true Kilafah, plenty of very legitimate religious sects are heavily shunned inwardly by the own outer group. Look at the divide Protestants have had with Catholics.

I recall growing up and hearing all sorts of nonsense about Catholics from my Protestant family and hearing them profess how Catholics aren't Christian in the slightest bit. Despite the fact they built the very backbone of Christianity to this day.

ISIS is Muslim, nobody said anything about them being knowledgeable Muslims yet alone righteous Muslims

ISIS kills a lot of Muslims.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Oh, not particularly.

I have commented on now Islam is the
source of terr ideology, and as it is that
god is great stuff they chant, rather than
something else, I kind of think I am right.

Good grief.. They say God is great when they have a flat tire,, and have been called Salafi since I was a kid.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
  1. Dangers of the Khawarij ideology of violence | Faith in ...
    Faith in Allah الإيمان باللهdangers-of-the-khawarij-ideology-of-violence
    The most dangerous sect in Islam are the Kharijites (al-khawārij). They have existed since the very early period of Islam and they will continue to cause strife in the Muslim nation until the end of time when they will join forces with the False Messiah (al-dajjāl). We must be aware of their ...

Thank you for that, sooda.

I opine that ISIS are indeed Kharaijites, and outside the fold of Islam; and I am not alone in having this opinion. However, I felt it important to state the opinions of (at least) two scholars who disagree!
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yes because Saudi students have been coming to the US to study since 1950. That was part of their oil concession with ARAMCO.. You have some conspiracy that you have cooked up?

No, the answer is embedded in your answer: "oil".

Aka, "dollars".

This is why the KSA you saw when you lived there, isn't the KSA that common native citizens see.
For example, I'm sure that the Saudi's won't be decapitating Americans in the middle of a public intersection in the middle of the day after which they will publicly display their bloody headless bodies by suspending them on cranes in front of a university while students are taking exams.

Never gonna happen.
But they have no problem doing such things with arabs though.

Off course, those common arabs aren't important to the endless flows of black gold.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
ISIS kills a lot of Muslims.

Which doesn't make themselves any less muslim.

When catholics and protestants were killing eachother, they were both christians as well.
Both sides would probably claim to be the "TRUE christians" off course.
Nevertheless, both catholics and protestants ARE christians.

Just like Al-bagdadi and the rest of them crooks ARE muslims.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Thank you for that, sooda.

I opine that ISIS are indeed Kharaijites, and outside the fold of Islam; and I am not alone in having this opinion. However, I felt it important to state the opinions of (at least) two scholars who disagree!
I'm sure ISIS type folks can appeal to other "scholars" who agree with them.


This "no true scottsman" game you guys seem to be playing, is kind of silly.

I think most of us are intelligent enough to know and understand that you can take almost any religion and "live it" in such a way that you respect the secular rights of others peacefully, or you can "live it" in such a way that you actually find it honorable to die for it while combatting a perceived enemy of the religion. We call the first "moderates" and the latter "extremists / fundamentalists / radicals".

But, in the case of Islam, they are all still muslims.
In the case of christianity, they are all still christians.
 

Komori

Member
I have heard them called Salafi since I was a kid. Where are all you experts from?

Non-Salafīs often call them Salafīs. But the Salafī dāʿīs who speak to a Western audience have taken to calling them Khawārij, since they are uncomfortable with the association and want to delude themselves into thinking that there is no similarities between their ideology and that of ISIS. Even the modern Ibāḍīs in Oman, who are the only living sect descended from the actual Khawārij, are more tolerant than these people, and even dating back to the time of their founder ʿAbdu'llāh ibn Ibāḍ, they dissociated themselves from the more extremist Khawārij but nevertheless retained the label. Which is another reason why I hesitate in applying the term to ISIS. It's frankly unfair to the Khawārij. But ISIS is what happens when you take Salafism to its logical conclusion. The scholars even realized this centuries ago, which is why they constantly had Ibn Taymiyyah arrested.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Non-Salafīs often call them Salafīs. But the Salafī dāʿīs who speak to a Western audience have taken to calling them Khawārij, since they are uncomfortable with the association and want to delude themselves into thinking that there is no similarities between their ideology and that of ISIS. Even the modern Ibāḍīs in Oman, who are the only living sect descended from the actual Khawārij, are more tolerant than these people, and even dating back to the time of their founder ʿAbdu'llāh ibn Ibāḍ, they dissociated themselves from the more extremist Khawārij but nevertheless retained the label. Which is another reason why I hesitate in applying the term to ISIS. It's frankly unfair to the Khawārij. But ISIS is what happens when you take Salafism to its logical conclusion. The scholars even realized this centuries ago, which is why they constantly had Ibn Taymiyyah arrested.

Are you from OMAN?Does Islamic state call themselves Salafi?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
No, the answer is embedded in your answer: "oil".

Aka, "dollars".

This is why the KSA you saw when you lived there, isn't the KSA that common native citizens see.
For example, I'm sure that the Saudi's won't be decapitating Americans in the middle of a public intersection in the middle of the day after which they will publicly display their bloody headless bodies by suspending them on cranes in front of a university while students are taking exams.

Never gonna happen.
But they have no problem doing such things with arabs though.

Off course, those common arabs aren't important to the endless flows of black gold.

ARAMCO build the infrastructure and educated their workforce. Cheap oil fueled the Marshall Plan and made the US a superpower. You have to be a total dumbass to get the death penalty in KSA.

I have been back to KSA as often as possible over the years. What is your problem? Were you an unemployed petroleum engineer?
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
ISIS kills a lot of Muslims.

Hello, sooda.

In his book ‘Refuting Isis’, Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi writes:

‘The opinion of the majority of Islamic jurists regarding the infamous Khawārij sect is that they are Muslims; they did not deem them unbelievers, although they considered it obligatory to fight against them and stop their transgression.’

He goes on:

‘None of the scholars, in either past or recent times, ever disagreed that the Khawārij are an evil group, disobedient to God Almighty and to His Messenger (PBUH). Even if they pray, fast, or strive in worship, it does not benefit them; and even if they openly enjoin good and forbid evil, it does not benefit them, as they are a people who interpret the Quran according to their desire….The general tendency amongst Islamic jurists was to consider them deviators, misguided, and disobedient to Almighty God and His Messenger (PBUH), but not outside the fold of Islam. This explains why most contemporary Sunni scholars have hesitated to condemn ISIS followers as unbelievers – although there are enough reasons to do so.’


There is a reluctance on the part of Islamic scholars to excommunicate a Muslim; no matter how reprehensible that person’s words and deeds.

The Shaykh writes:

‘I constantly repeat to my students my father’s statement, “To accept a thousand persons’ claims of being Muslim with the slightest evidence, even when there is doubt, is dearer to us than to expel a single man from the fold of Islam with an element of doubt concerning his belief.” This means that doubt in the proof and difference of opinion is always used in favor of people.’


There can be no doubt that the words and deeds of ISIS’ members justify the declaration that they are non-Muslims.

In defence of this claim the Shaykh cites (first): ‘The level of extremism they have reached in their beliefs, to the point that they declare all Muslims who oppose them as unbelievers’; (and second): ‘Their persistence in shedding the blood of innocent Muslims, believing it is allowed to kill, which means making lawful that which is unlawful.’

The Shaykh goes on:

‘One may argue that their ideology is supported by sacred texts and that their actions are backed up by ostensibly valid proofs and that they are therefore not rebelling against God but rather taking revenge against people who rebelled against Him or suspended His divine injunctions.

‘In answer to this argument we say that in the Islamic tradition we have criteria for determining when a difference of opinion is valid or invalid and standards for evaluating various levels of understanding or misunderstanding of the sacred texts. In the case of ISIS we find that they, like the Khawārij who preceded them, went to extremes in their misinterpretation of the sacred texts and their opposition to the consensus of Muslim jurists, to the point that they left no room for reconciliation with the rest of the 1.6 billion Muslims and the thousands of scholars around the world.

‘Imam al-Bukhārī accepted the narrations of moderate Khawārij who did not fight, but he was tough in his classification of those who carried arms and chose violence. He alluded to them being unbelievers when, in his Ṣaḥīḥ collection, he associated them with heretics in the title of the chapter, “Fighting the Khawārij and the Heretics After Establishing Proof Against them.”’


The Shaykh quotes the distinguished Imam Abū Bakr Ibn al-˓Arabi:

‘The correct opinion is that they (the Khawārij) are unbelievers due to the words of the Prophet (PBUH), “They shall pass out of the religion,” and his words, “I shall truly kill them as the people of ˓Ād were killed.” In another narration, the nation Thamūd is mentioned. Both ˓Ād and Thamūd perished due to their unbelief. Likewise, his words, “They are the worst of creation”; no one is described with this except unbelievers, and his words, “Truly they are the most hated of creation by Almighty God.” Furthermore, due to their passing the judgment of unbelief on all who oppose them and declaring their eternal damnation in Hell, they (Khawārij) are far more deserving of this category than the ones they accused.’ (‘Tuḥfat al-Aḥwadhī Sharḥ Sunan al-Tirmidhī – Vol 9 p. 38).


And then goes on to cite the jurist Imam al-Mālikī, who writes:

‘The meaning of this simile (the Prophetic saying, ‘They shall pass out of the religion) is that this group has left the religion of Islam and is not attached to it. Hence, our scholars have clung to the apparent meaning of this simile in declaring them unbelievers. Many scholars hesitated to declare them unbelievers because of his (PBUH) words, “there is quarrelling regarding the notch of the arrow,” implying doubt regarding them. However, it seems that the first opinion – the opinion that they are already unbelievers – is more evident from the hadith.’ (‘al-Mufhim limā Ashkala min Talkhīṣ Kitāb Muslim – Volume 3’).


And Al-Shawkānī, who writes:

‘Al-Ghazālī said in al-Wasīṭ, “There are two opinions regarding the Khawārij: the first is that the ruling of apostates applies to them and the second is that the ruling of transgressors applies to them. Al-Rāfi˓ī (who is a reliable authority in the Shāfi˓ī school) gave preference to the first.’” (‘Nayl al-Awṭār, chapter: ‘Fighting the Khawārij and the People of Injustice’).


The Shaykh concludes:

‘It is imperative that no one be deceived by any acts of worship towards God which these criminals perform, such as prayers or fasting. Our Prophet (PBUH) unveiled their reality and said, as narrated by al-Bukhārī, “You shall belittle your prayer and fasting in comparison to their prayer and fasting…” He continued, “they shall pass out of the religion just as an arrow passes through the prey.” This hadith, and several others that reveal the description of Khawārij, apply to ISIS.

‘ISIS claims to support Islam and calls Muslims around the world to jihad in the way of God and to the implementation of the Shariah, but their claims are refuted by their actions: they cause the worst damage to Muslims and the worst distortion to Islam; they perform “jihad” by killing Muslims in Syria and Iraq, or by killing innocent civilians in malls, theatres, restaurants, and mosques. How can they claim to implement the Shariah when they are ignorant of it?

‘Supporting Islam can never be achieved through excommunication of the Muslim nation, nor by betraying non-Muslim citizens and enslaving them. ISIS’ leaders are people of unbelief and misguidance, and Muslims should not be lured by their jihad or deceived by their propaganda, as their actions speak louder than their words.’


As you know, ISIS makes use of suicide attacks. It should be noted that the Former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Bin Baz (an ardent Wahhabi) declared that such attacks are ‘evil, sinful, immoral, corrupt, oppressive and hostile’; and that those responsible for such crimes do not believe in Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) and the Last Day ‘with correct conviction.’ In his opinion, such people are: ‘Indulged in the lewdness of the spirit, corruption of the self and envy.’ (referenced in ‘ISIS - DAESH a Catastrophe and a Tribulation’; by Syed Hussain bin Osman Madani, and reviewed by Shaykh Abdullah Taha Madani).

Syed Madani writes:

‘Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Ramzan Al-Hajari (may Allah preserve him), Lecturer by Royal Commission Al-Jubail, Eastern Province Saudi Arabia said that Daesh (ISIS) and Nusrah Front are not upon truth.

‘He further said that there are no ‘Ulama (scholars) with this organisation, rather all of them are imprudent and foolish…………a bloodthirsty and savage organisation, which is not only a danger for Muslims, but rather the whole humanity. Furthermore, he said that to warn against the perpetuators of mischief and tribulations and to disgrace them is an extremely high level of Jihad.

‘After having known the opinion of the Indian scholars towards Daesh, it is appropriate to get ourselves acquainted with what the Muslim leadership has to say about it too. The senior Barrister, Janab Asad-ud-Deen Owaisi, President of AIMIM, and Member of Parliament in India, gave this message to 180 million Muslims that Daesh are Khawaarij, who are dogs of Hellfire, adulterers, murderers and worthy of condemnation. He also advised the youth to remain close with the ‘Ulama, and prevent themselves from visiting the terrorist websites, and consider seeking knowledge, eradication of poverty and serving one’s parents to be Jihad in the current times.

‘Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh ‘Abdul ‘Azeez Aal Ash-Sheikh (may Allah preserve him) said that organisations like Al-Qaeda and Daesh are Khawaarij, amongst whom extremism, severity, rigidness, mischief and terrorism are found. Moreover, they are the first enemies of Islam, who slaughter the Muslims to begin with. Thus, these organisations have nothing to do with Islam. In fact they are outside the Deen.’ (Op. cit.).


The following is a narration from 'Ali ibn Abī Ṭālib (radi Allahu ‘anhu), the cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam):

‘When you see black flags, stay where you are, and do not move your hand or legs. Then, a group of people shall emerge; they are weak, insignificant, and their hearts are like pieces of iron. They are people of the State. They never fulfill any pact or contract. They call to the truth though they do not belong to it. Their names shall be agnomens and their ascriptions will be after villages. Their hair shall be left down like the hair of women. (They will emerge) until they begin to quarrel amongst themselves. Then God will give the truth to whomever He wills.’ (Narrated by Nu˓aym bin Hammād in his book ‘al-Fitan’).


Shaykh Al-Yaqoubi writes:

‘We can see how precise this hadith is in the description of ISIS’ followers and how it applies to them:

‘The black flags, which first appeared with al-Qaida and were later used by ISIS.

‘They are weak and insignificant and their hearts are like pieces of iron.

‘Regarding the “people of the State,” the Arabic word used in the hadith is al-Dawla, which is the actual name of the ISIS state in Arabic and was not used before them.

‘They never fulfill any pact or contract. This has become a noted quality of ISIS in Syria and Iraq, whether the contracts are new with other military groups in Syria or old with other countries around the world, with which Muslims signed several types of treaties. Betrayal is a quality of the hypocrites rebuked by Almighty God and by His Final Messenger (PBUH).

‘They call to the truth though they do not belong to it. This is another statement that shows how far they are from Islam and the gap between their words and their actions.

‘Their names shall be agnomens, such as Abū Bakr, Abū Muṣ˓ab, Abū ˓Umar, etc. They never use real names such as Aḥmad, Muḥammad, ˓Umar.

‘Their ascriptions will be after villages, such as al-Baghdādī after Bagdad, al-Shīshānī after Chechnya, al-Zarqāwī, after Zarqa in Jordan, etc.

‘Their hair shall be left down like the hair of women. This is another feature of ISIS fighters which further confirms their description.

‘They begin to quarrel amongst themselves. This is another prediction in the hadith which I believe will be crucial to their defeat. The Khawārij sect of the first century AH did not stay united for long; schisms among themselves led to their defeat. I believe, based on this statement, that a schism will appear between them that will lead to their defeat. This is natural, as they started as a splinter group from al-Qaida.’ (‘Refuting Isis’).

Have a great day, and may Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla bless you, and your family.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You have to be a total dumbass to get the death penalty in KSA.

Yeah... like writing a poem while using the "wrong" words!!!

:rolleyes:

I don't think you could stick your head deeper in the desert sands, even if you tried.

I have been back to KSA as often as possible over the years. What is your problem? Were you an unemployed petroleum engineer?

My problem is your total denial of reality and your habbit to defend their cruel, inhuman, barbaric, dictatorial practices. To the point of even denying that they engage in such behaviour everyday.

Like that time I linked you to 7 different sources telling the story of those publicly executed yemeni's who then got put on display by suspending their headless bodies by cranes in front of a university.

First you insinuated that it was in Iran.
Then I linked you to 4 or 5 sources explaining it most definatly happened in KSA.
You then complained that those sources didn't have pictures, as if it was possible that they were talking about something else.
I then gave you sources telling the same story again, this time while also featuring pictures.


You went dead silent after that and still haven't acknowledge the event. I brought it to your attention several times again since then and you simply ignored it. Just like you'll probably ignore it again now.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me that IF you'll address, it will once again be to deny it or at very best you'll come with some pathetic excuse again.

As long as you don't have to condemn your arab overlords I guess.
It seems they did a good job with you..............


:rolleyes:
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yeah... like writing a poem while using the "wrong" words!!!

:rolleyes:

I don't think you could stick your head deeper in the desert sands, even if you tried.



My problem is your total denial of reality and your habbit to defend their cruel, inhuman, barbaric, dictatorial practices. To the point of even denying that they engage in such behaviour everyday.

Like that time I linked you to 7 different sources telling the story of those publicly executed yemeni's who then got put on display by suspending their headless bodies by cranes in front of a university.

First you insinuated that it was in Iran.
Then I linked you to 4 or 5 sources explaining it most definatly happened in KSA.
You then complained that those sources didn't have pictures, as if it was possible that they were talking about something else.
I then gave you sources telling the same story again, this time while also featuring pictures.


You went dead silent after that and still haven't acknowledge the event. I brought it to your attention several times again since then and you simply ignored it. Just like you'll probably ignore it again now.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me that IF you'll address, it will once again be to deny it or at very best you'll come with some pathetic excuse again.

As long as you don't have to condemn your arab overlords I guess.
It seems they did a good job with you..............


:rolleyes:

The penalty for terrorists and murderers is pretty tough.
 

Komori

Member
Are you from OMAN?Does Islamic state call themselves Salafi?
No, I'm not from Oman. And we've discussed this issue in another thread. All throughout their publications, particularly in their magazines Dabiq and Rumiyah, they constantly reference the teachings of the Salaf and the writings of Salafi scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Abdu'l-Wahhab and attack other Muslims as kuffar and religious innovators for not being faithful to them. They certainly consider themselves to be Salafis. Of course, whether they are true Salafis is a different question, but I think I've made that matter fairly clear. Ibn Tamiyyah believed in the permissibility of killing Druze, Alawites, and other groups he deemed too heretical and what is ISIS doing today? When you have made takfir upon one group and made their blood permissible, it becomes extremely easy for deranged people to extend this. And this is how al-Zarqawi and al-Baghdadi justified their massacres against the Shi'ah and the Sufis.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The penalty for terrorists and murderers is pretty tough.

Or for writing "the wrong kind" of poetry. Or sharing "the wrong" opinions.

And it's not "tough".
It's rather things like: brutal, barbaric, inhuman, cruel, disgusting, despicable, shocking, evil,...
 
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