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Ishmael (The Book)

von bek

Well-Known Member
So, this week I read the book, Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn. After finishing it, I went on to another book by Quinn, The Story of B. I am almost finished with the second book, then I plan on continuing to his third book. These books are really thought-provoking for me. They are definitely altering my views on society, culture, and religion. With religion, it actually is serving to confirm where my views have been and the shape they have been taking. All I will say on the matter of religion at the moment is that the so-called revealed religions are part of the problems we face, as they serve to reinforce the (erroneous) idea that humans are separate from and superior to other life-forms. Tied up with this is the idea that humans have a responsibility to dominate and tame nature. In contrast to salvation-centered revealed religions, Quinn posits animism as a spirituality that places humans back in harmony with the wider ecosystem. The divine, the spiritual is not singular, it is a multiplicity. Now, I do want to caution that Quinn is not saying the revealed religions are responsible for our severance from the ecosystem, only that they arose in a system that was already sick.

I am not even scratching the surface of what Quinn has to say in his books, in fact I have not even really touched on his biggest insights. I only start with this bit on religion as a primer for discussion. Anyone who has read Quinn's work and wishes to expand on what I have started here, please do so. I do not want to limit discussion on the book to one topic within it.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
Thanks for bringing this up. Have to read those!

I highly recommend them! You may or may not find some of his views controversial, even upsetting. If you do, keep reading. Let Quinn make his case. One of his more controversial views is that agriculture is not the solution to famine, it is the cause of it... (However, he is not anti-agriculture. What he is saying is that there are sustainable forms of agriculture that do not place us at war with other animals and plants. We must change how we produce food, as it is killing us and wiping out biodiversity.)
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
I'll add them to my list of books to read. I think I've read a shorter piece or two by him. Go Animism!

These books use the structure of a novel to deliver the ideas. They can be read quickly; but, they take some time to digest. I am not done with the digestion process, my thinking has already changed, though. As a pagan, I am attracted to much of what Quinn says about spirituality, though he makes a distinction between Paganism (with a capital "P") and animism. Quinn sees Pagan traditions as connected to agriculture, which he views as one of the key points where humanity began to alienate itself from and then forget the way humans had lived for millions of years.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
So, this week I read the book, Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn. After finishing it, I went on to another book by Quinn, The Story of B. I am almost finished with the second book, then I plan on continuing to his third book. These books are really thought-provoking for me. They are definitely altering my views on society, culture, and religion. With religion, it actually is serving to confirm where my views have been and the shape they have been taking. All I will say on the matter of religion at the moment is that the so-called revealed religions are part of the problems we face, as they serve to reinforce the (erroneous) idea that humans are separate from and superior to other life-forms. Tied up with this is the idea that humans have a responsibility to dominate and tame nature. In contrast to salvation-centered revealed religions, Quinn posits animism as a spirituality that places humans back in harmony with the wider ecosystem. The divine, the spiritual is not singular, it is a multiplicity. Now, I do want to caution that Quinn is not saying the revealed religions are responsible for our severance from the ecosystem, only that they arose in a system that was already sick.

I am not even scratching the surface of what Quinn has to say in his books, in fact I have not even really touched on his biggest insights. I only start with this bit on religion as a primer for discussion. Anyone who has read Quinn's work and wishes to expand on what I have started here, please do so. I do not want to limit discussion on the book to one topic within it.

Tried to read that book some years ago and couldn't get into it. Probably not the fault of the book. I may take another run at it in the future.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
So, this week I read the book, Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn. After finishing it, I went on to another book by Quinn, The Story of B. I am almost finished with the second book, then I plan on continuing to his third book. These books are really thought-provoking for me. They are definitely altering my views on society, culture, and religion. With religion, it actually is serving to confirm where my views have been and the shape they have been taking. All I will say on the matter of religion at the moment is that the so-called revealed religions are part of the problems we face, as they serve to reinforce the (erroneous) idea that humans are separate from and superior to other life-forms. Tied up with this is the idea that humans have a responsibility to dominate and tame nature. In contrast to salvation-centered revealed religions, Quinn posits animism as a spirituality that places humans back in harmony with the wider ecosystem. The divine, the spiritual is not singular, it is a multiplicity. Now, I do want to caution that Quinn is not saying the revealed religions are responsible for our severance from the ecosystem, only that they arose in a system that was already sick.

I am not even scratching the surface of what Quinn has to say in his books, in fact I have not even really touched on his biggest insights. I only start with this bit on religion as a primer for discussion. Anyone who has read Quinn's work and wishes to expand on what I have started here, please do so. I do not want to limit discussion on the book to one topic within it.

Any theology that says humans are not superior to other life forms makes me think, the author of such foolishness is not worth reading.

Revealed religions are not part of the problem. It is people not following their religion. If all the world followed all the rules of Christianity, would our world be better or worse?
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
Any theology that says humans are not superior to other life forms makes me think, the author of such foolishness is not worth reading.

Revealed religions are not part of the problem. It is people not following their religion. If all the world followed all the rules of Christianity, would our world be better or worse?

Far worse. We would be fruitful and multiply until we choked the planet of all resources and/or create an environmental collapse. The idea that we are different from all other life is killing us as it leads to patterns of thought and behavior that are highly destructive.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Far worse. We would be fruitful and multiply until we choked the planet of all resources and/or create an environmental collapse. The idea that we are different from all other life is killing us as it leads to patterns of thought and behavior that are highly destructive.
And it says right there in the Good Book that we have dominion over it, so it must be right...especially if it brings about the End Times sooner!:eek::oops::rolleyes:
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Far worse. We would be fruitful and multiply until we choked the planet of all resources and/or create an environmental collapse. The idea that we are different from all other life is killing us as it leads to patterns of thought and behavior that are highly destructive.

That simply isn't true. Christianity teaches not only respect for all mankind, it also teaches love for all mankind. To put equal value on man and worms is absurd. It is making animals and plants equal with humans is the destructive behavior. Evidently you have not payed attention to some or PETA's expressions of love of all mankind.

Do you agree with PETA?

Most if not all tree-huggers favor abortion on demand. Are you also in favor of slaughtering innocent children?
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
That simply isn't true. Christianity teaches not only respect for all mankind, it also teaches love for all mankind. To put equal value on man and worms is absurd. It is making animals and plants equal with humans is the destructive behavior. Evidently you have not payed attention to some or PETA's expressions of love of all mankind.

Do you agree with PETA?

Most if not all tree-huggers favor abortion on demand. Are you also in favor of slaughtering innocent children?

I am not concerned with what PETA says. They do not speak for me.

Do you think that loss of biodiversity is a problem? Do you believe your god will one day undo all the damage humans have caused?
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I am not concerned with what PETA says. They do not speak for me.

Good for you.

Do you think that loss of biodiversity is a problem?

It hasn't been yet. I don't care if cockroaches become extinct. Since some animals, rats for example, carry diseases harmful to humans, would it not make our world better if the became extinct?

Do you believe your god will one day undo all the damage humans have caused?

Hhe has promised a new heaven and a new earth where all things will be made new. I have no reasons to doubt Him.
 
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