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Ishmael or Isaac

Mystic-als

Active Member
I was raised christian. And since an early age was taught that Isaac was the son of promise and therefore the Inheretance of Abraham was due to him. Regardless or Ishmael being first born.

Please can the MUSLIM RFers ONLY explain to me why Ishmael is the son of inheretance.
And what impact does this have on the current conflict between Israel and Palestine.

Thank you soo much in advance.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Hello Mystical:

Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, married Sarah, and had no children from her for many years.

He then married Hajar, and his first son from Hajar was Ishmael (Prophet Ismail, peace be upon him).

His second son from Sarah was Isaac (Prophet Ishaq, peace be upon him).

I don't know what you mean by the inheritance of Abraham, peace be upon him, but the normal debate is who was Abraham going to sacrifice, in obedience to God's Command, Ishmael or Isaac?

The Muslim answer is that it was in fact Ishmael, peace be upon him.

I have no idea what impact that may have on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, if any.

QUOTE

To be the children of Abraham is to love Allah and to become the friend of Allah.

There are many who claim Abraham and his inheritance, but who are his real children? Humanity needs real children of Abraham, not those who pretend to be his children and follow not his way.

UNQUOTE

Let Us Be the Real Children of Abraham

Peace and all the best.
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
I am totally un-educated on this subject (or at least wrongly educated) so this is why I ask. Thank you for your response.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Mystic-als said:
I was raised christian. And since an early age was taught that Isaac was the son of promise and therefore the Inheretance of Abraham was due to him. Regardless or Ishmael being first born.

Please can the MUSLIM RFers ONLY explain to me why Ishmael is the son of inheretance.
And what impact does this have on the current conflict between Israel and Palestine.

Thank you soo much in advance.
Then I have to ask what does the verse in deuteronomy 21:15-17. For if this is the case then this is a clear contradiction. Ishmael is first born as stated by the bible and his rights cannot be taken away as says the bible.
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
I agree, but doesn't the father actually have to "bestow" the rights onto the child before he dies? Give his son a blessing. So Ishmael had the right to get the blessing.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Mystic-als said:
I agree, but doesn't the father actually have to "bestow" the rights onto the child before he dies? Give his son a blessing. So Ishmael had the right to get the blessing.
The rights were given to him by the Creator he doesn't need his father to give him anything. If Allah is giving the rights and He is the Judge and the Ruler on the Day of Judgment His laws are all that matter. It was the mercy of Allah for them to have kids anyways remember how old Abraham and his wife were. Read what Allah says about Ishmael, Gen 17:20, and Gen 21:13 (Here God is saying he is Abrahams seed), gen 21:18 and there is no way Abraham had a illegitamate child Sarah gave Hagar to her to be his wife it is in the bible Gen 16:3. How can one of the greatest Messenger of Allah have a child out of wed lock. Dogma and scripture do not agree and they try to take rights that Allah has bestowed on him away
 

john313

warrior-poet
a brother i know wrote a great article on this. God willing i will be able to find an electronic copy and let you read it if you are interested.

peace
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
I would appreciate that john313. Thank you.

I am more an more starting to relise that our greatest forefathers made some of the greatest mistakes. But the mercy of God kept them. I think this is how God shows us that he can use anyone and turn them into great men/woman. Abraham IMO should never have sent away his child and wife. But it cannot be argued that he wasn't a great man. It saddens me that a "mistake" so many generations ago has resulted in animosity between brothers.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Mystic-als said:
I would appreciate that john313. Thank you.

I am more an more starting to relise that our greatest forefathers made some of the greatest mistakes. But the mercy of God kept them. I think this is how God shows us that he can use anyone and turn them into great men/woman. Abraham IMO should never have sent away his child and wife. But it cannot be argued that he wasn't a great man. It saddens me that a "mistake" so many generations ago has resulted in animosity between brothers.
The reason you feel that he made a mistake in sending away his wife and child is because you are uninformed as to the fulfilment of the covenant and you did not hear the whole story of why exactly he left them there. He was commanded to leave them there by God as a test in their faith and obedience to Allah (God).
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
Okay. I am sorry for jumping to conclusions. I only know the christian version of the events.

So.. Just like God tested Abraham by sacrafising Isaac He did the same with Ishmael. But you say he did it by asking Abraham to abandon Ishmael.
This makes sense.

Can you expound on this for me please?
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Mystic-als said:
Okay. I am sorry for jumping to conclusions. I only know the christian version of the events.

So.. Just like God tested Abraham by sacrafising Isaac He did the same with Ishmael. But you say he did it by asking Abraham to abandon Ishmael.
This makes sense.

Now you have to remember that Muslims believe Ishmael was sacrificed when the covenant was made. Issac was not born yet. It is in the bible on the day the circumcision took place. Yes I know what you are gonna say the bible clearly says in Gen 22 that Issac was to be sacrificed. But you will see the contradiction there. It is mentioned there "thine only son Issac." How can you be the only son when the first born was 13 and you are not even born yet. The leaving of his wife and newborn was a test. The circumcision and sacrifice were tests as well. But they were not with Isaac. Now I am not saying that he is not blessed but the covenant was made with Ishmael.
Can you expound on this for me please?
do you want the whole story.
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
I ws told that the apparent contradiction was in fact God telling Abraham the Isaac was his only son. And the Ishmael was seen as not his son by God.

I would like the whole story if possible.
i know it might be a lot. But I am interested to see your belief.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Mystic-als said:
I ws told that the apparent contradiction was in fact God telling Abraham the Isaac was his only son. And the Ishmael was seen as not his son by God.

I would like the whole story if possible.
i know it might be a lot. But I am interested to see your belief.
How can God tell him that Isaac is his only son when God in the bible clearly mentions him as his son (Gen 17:24-27) and his seed (Gen 21:13) that would be a contradiction also. Isaac cannot be the only son you have to be first born. So how can he not be his son when God recognised him as a son and blessed as well. Gen 16:10,Gen 17:20, Gen 21:13, Gen 21:18. He is legitimate interms of his inheritance and his title as son (Deut 21:15-17), and was promised a land in (Gen 15:18) Show me the verse where God says Ishmael is not his legitimate son with first born rights to inheritance. I was told a lot of things to as a Christian but a person telling me does not make it true. The bible is what makes your religion if it has mistakes and errors and clear contradictions in terms of rights, priveliges, and historical record what can be said about its validity. The whole story of Ishmael and Abraham is long I will put a post up insha Allah detailing the events. Just remind me
 

mr.guy

crapsack
MM said:
The bible is what makes your religion if it has mistakes and errors and clear contradictions in terms of rights, priveliges, and historical record what can be said about its validity.
Out of curiosity, does the Qu'ran make any statements as to the inacuracies of scripture? I can only assume it'd been obvious to the authors of the time, ie. god.

The whole story of Ishmael and Abraham is long I will put a post up insha Allah detailing the events.
I, for one would enjoy that (or a link to a detailed telling).
Hopefully, you could also add some insight towards my next rereading of Moby Dick.
 

john313

warrior-poet
mr.guy said:
Out of curiosity, does the Qu'ran make any statements as to the inacuracies of scripture? I can only assume it'd been obvious to the authors of the time, ie. god.
actually the book of jeremiah says the bible has been corrupted. so we only need the bible to know the "lying pens of the scribes have handled it falsely".


peace
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
mr.guy said:
Out of curiosity, does the Qu'ran make any statements as to the inacuracies of scripture? I can only assume it'd been obvious to the authors of the time, ie. god.
Yes, it states people changed the religion for their own personal gain. Allah knew it but the arabs did not. Most of them were unlettered

I, for one would enjoy that (or a link to a detailed telling).
Hopefully, you could also add some insight towards my next rereading of Moby Dick.
No problem I may start with his meeting of Sarah as well and Abraham meeting with Nebechanezzar, Why Moby Dick?
 

mr.guy

crapsack
john313 said:
actually the book of jeremiah says the bible has been corrupted. so we only need the bible to know the "lying pens of the scribes have handled it falsely".
In that vein, doesn't Jeremiah 23:25-26 make it somewhat difficult to critisize scripture while adhering to newer prophets?
 
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