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Featured Isaiah and Messiah

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Oct 11, 2021.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 51:22 [KJV] says:
    'Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again;'

    Isaiah 51:22 [JPS] says:
    'Thus said the LORD, your Lord,
    Your God who champions His people:
    Herewith I take from your hand
    The cup of reeling,
    The bowl, the cup of My wrath;
    You shall never drink it again.'


    Who is it that pleads the cause of His people? Who is it that champions His people?

    Who is it that says, 'Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling'?

    Who is it that says, Herewith I take from your hand the cup of reeling [dire fate]?

    We know from Psalm 110:1 that a distinction is made between 'the LORD' and 'my Lord'. The LORD (of Psalm 110) speaks to David's Lord and says, 'Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' So, this is clearly not an ordinary man, or even the 'son of David' by human procreation.

    Matthew 26:39 tells us who takes the cup. 'And he [Jesus] went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.'

    IMO, there can be no doubt that Jesus Christ is OUR Lord, and that he comes from God, as the salvation of God. It is he that brings salvation, taking away the cup of wrath. Do you agree?

    Isaiah 52:7. 'How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!'
     
  2. Lain

    Lain I just told you who I thought I was...

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    St. Matthew relates who takes the cup, and St. Paul relates who pleads the cause: "He [the Lord Jesus] is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has taken place for the redemption of transgressions committed during the first covenant, those who are the called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance... Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for the second time without reference to sin to those who eagerly await him for salvation."

    I of course agree that Jesus is Lord for these passages and many others (such as the whole Psalter, which should be prayed daily, for He prayed it in His Person for us so we are able to pray it in Him, third link in signature).
     
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  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Throughout the Tanakh, there's absolutely no quetion as to what "His people" are, and it's Jews.

    This indicates that there were Jews who didn't follow the Law closely enough, thus they will be punished. This is a reoccurring theme in Isaiah.

    See above.
     
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    So Don't use the KJV

    "So said your Master, the Lord, and your God Who shall judge His people, "Behold, I took from you the cup of weakness; the dregs of the cup of My wrath-you shall no longer continue to drink it."

    And I will place it into the hand of those who cause you to wander, who said to your soul, 'Bend down and let us cross,' and you made your body like the earth and like the street for those who cross."

    God.
    God
    God.

    No, we know that there are 2 different words in Hebrew so they refer to two different objects (adoni vs adonai). Neither is a function of English capital letters.
     
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  5. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    No.
     
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the more accurate subject of 'His people' would be 'Israel'. Israel is both an individual head (the Messiah) and a body (His people).

    Whereas only a remnant of Jacob are saved, scripture indicates that 'all' Israel will be saved.
     
  7. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    What?

    Am I missing something?
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The 'two different objects' that you refer to are David's 'Lord' and 'the LORD'. This is clearly a reference to the Messiah, and to his Father in heaven. The Messiah is a 'mediator' and therefore rightly differentiated from the Father.

    Who do you imagine is the king (and priest) of Isaiah 6:1?
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Jacob was renamed Israel after the great prayer-struggle at Peniel [Genesis 32:28]. He was the man whose name came to be synonymous with the twelve tribes. A head, and a body.

    Israel is a 'type' of Christ. Christ is the head, and His people are the body. That is why Matthew's Gospel begins with the words, 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ'. There is only one body, one generation in Christ. It's the difference between the temporal life (Adam's generations: Genesis 5:1), and an eternal life.
     
    #9 Redemptionsong, Oct 11, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
  10. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    Yes.

    No.
     
  11. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I see It is all the Mesengers.

    Since Jesus there has been Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

    I see the Law now radiates from Zion. That now from Mount Carmel peace is published.

    Regards Tony
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    "Israel", "Hebrews", and "Israel" refer to the same people-- Jews. The oldest is "Hebrews" with the other two being added later.

    When Jews returned from the diaspora from Babylon, which is what Isaiah is largely about, the tribes got mixed because of the "remnants", and that they remain today. Thus, in no way does that book refer to Jesus and Christianity in any kind of direct way. But there's another way of looking at it and applying what's learned.
     
  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The two different objects (evidenced by two different words) are God and possibly Abraham (as it is a word used to refer to Abraham in Gen 23:6). Saying it is "clearly a reference" to something is obviously wrong when the textual parallel is clearly NOT the messiah.
    Here is Isaiah 6:1 (in English, though I would prefer to use the Hebrew)

    "In the year of the death of King Uzziah, I saw the Lord sitting on a high and exalted throne, and His lower extremity filled the Temple."

    The king is listed as King Uzziah. Of course, it is important to remember that this judgment passed on Uzziah was at least in part because, as Rashi writes, "שבא ליטול כתר כהונה"
     
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  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Once we reached the time of Messiah (Jesus) on Earth then the 'Israel of God' becomes Spiritual Israel - Galatians 6:16
    I find it is Jerusalem 'above' which becomes mother, the seat of government - Galatians 4:26.
    Israel Not just by birth, or a national Israel but now a 'spiritual nation' the Christian congregation - Romans 2:28-29
    A nation Not found located on any map, but now a nation without borders or boundaries. - 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 2:5
    So, the 'all' Israel that will be saved is 'spiritual Israel' the Christian congregation - Colossians 3:11
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    The ^ above ^ post reminds me of the two (2) LORD/Lords found at Psalms 110 (KJV)
    The LORD in ALL Upper-Case letters stands for LORD God (YHWH Tetragrammaton )
    The Lord in some lower-case letters stands for Lord Jesus and the Tetragrammaton is never applied to Lord Jesus.
     
  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah was a prophet, unveiling the vision of God, not man.

    Jesus uses the words of Isaiah to claim his own anointing- see Luke 4. Do you think Jesus was deceiving people?
     
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Why would Abraham be the object of a prophecy when Abraham was dead and buried? The prophecy of Isaiah does not look backwards.

    Psalm 110 is traditionally attributed to David (as the writer). He would not have called Abraham his 'Lord'.

    In lsaiah 6:2 it says that seraphims stood above the throne. So this was not the throne of king Uzziah. Isaiah didn't need a vision to see Uzziah because he saw him regularly 'in the flesh'.

    Isaiah 6:3 identifies the person on the throne as 'the LORD of hosts'. So who is 'the Lord of hosts'?
     
  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I agree that spiritual lsrael is 'in Christ'. But the remnant of lsrael as a nation has yet to be grafted back in [Romans 11:23].
     
  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    That's a difficult position to maintain.
    What do you make of Zechariah
    14:9. Who is the LORD?
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Clearly, you do not understand what prophecy is -- it isn't telling the future. Abraham is called by the exact same word as the word used in Psalm 110:1. Why would the text be referring to someone else? And why wouldn't Abraham, progenitor of the Jewish people, not be a "master" (using the word "lord" seems to confuse you) to David who ruled the Jewish people?

    You seem to have missed something in verse 1. The throne was that of God. The vision was of God:
    "In the year that King Uzziah died, I beheld my Lord seated on a high and lofty throne; and the skirts of His robe filled the Temple."

    Who said that the throne was Uzziah's? I was talking about the word "king" used in the verse. It is pointing to Uzziah, and Rashi's statement fills out your request.
    That would be a name of God. Are you not familiar with the term? Here:
    https://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380329/jewish/Tzeva-ot-Master-of-Legions.htm
     
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