MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Just going from the bible. Not going outside "of that book". The context of the the verses in Chap 53 1-12 are speaking about the redemption ( possibly a future redemption of the nation of Israel )
Most kindly review the data below. I think you will find that there is good solid evidence below that the book of Isaiah is speaking about the nation of Israel.
My question to you is:
Why does there have to be 1 meaning to these verses? Why does it have to be either Israel **or** your Jesus Christ?
If Isaiah's audience is Jewish people that lived at the time when these words were spoken, then it makes sense that Isaiah is speaking about the nation of Israel.
If Isaiah's audience is future Christians, and Isaiah is speaking prophetically, then almost anything is possible. And I can imagine many messianic belief systems will find support in the book of Isaiah.
Why does it have to so black and white? Why can't the verses mean different things to different people?
(Note: if you want to continue the discussion of the verses which you presented that you claim disqualify Israel as the subject of these verses, please let me know.)
It is my position that on Isa 53, it is about Jesus Christ because on every line - he has already accomplished.
Also it couldn't be the ancient Israel or the modern Israel because the circumstances prevailing then and now is not suitable and does not allow that Isa 53 points to Israel. Israel had done violence, and it had to while the object in Isa 53 says he had done no violence. That alone removes Israel from the picture.
Isaiah's audience is the Jewish people? God's words are for all people. Isaiah's readers are from his time to the ends of the world, from Israel in 8th century BCE to the present time with the islands of the sea.
Isaiah 42:10 New International Version (NIV)
Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise from the ends of the earth,
you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
you islands, and all who live in them.
and we are at the ends of the earth [time]
and I am in living in the islands
and I am joining in singing to the Lord a new song.
---- again Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled, when God told him to write that
There are prophecies in Isaiah there that speaks of not only Christ Jesus but other people, God will send.
Isaiah 40:3 New International Version (NIV)
A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lord;
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God.
After 700 or so years....
John 1:22-23 New International Version (NIV)
Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”
If the words and the description fits, then we have a winner.
@MJFlores ,
I respect you. I respect your beliefs and your opinions. And I hope you believe me when I say. I am not contradicting your belief in Jesus Christ.
We are speaking about 1 book. And really, this thread is focused on 1 chapter of that 1 book.
But if you want to go with the "it's a perfect fit" argument, I'm sorry, that argument is false.
Based on Chap 52: verse 14, Isaiah was talking about something without human form, not resembling a man.
Brother: that means all those pictures of bloody hands and Jesus on the cross... Dude, those are 100% irrelevant.
Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a true story. But, Isaiah is not supporting evidence for that.
You are barking up the wrong tree.
I have to acknowledge that Isaiah 52:1-12 speaks of Zion and the daughter of Zion
It speaks of a future time and now we have Isa 52:13-15
Isaiah 52:13-15 New International Version (NIV)
See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
We would examine if I am barking up the wrong tree or I'm doing something else.
Joke
As you could see, I have colored the words -my servant will act wisely
If servant Israel will act wisely, then the servant mentioned in Isa 52:13-15 is Israel, hence not human despite of the fact of succeeding underlined words like his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
Let us see if my servant, Israel, will act wisely - was Isaiah and the Lord God points to the nation?
Isaiah lived in the 8th century BCE fast forward to Daniel who lived in the 6th century BCE - that is 200 years or so later. He wrote:
Daniel 9:11-20 New International Version (NIV)
All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.
“Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. The Lord did not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the Lord our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.
“Now, Lord our God, who brought your people out of Egypt with a mighty hand and who made for yourself a name that endures to this day, we have sinned, we have done wrong. Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our ancestors have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us.
“Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”
While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill—
--------
Did servant Israel acted wisely? According to Daniel, Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you
This brings us to the life of the Lord Jesus Christ...
Acts 3:12-14 New International Version (NIV)
When Peter saw this, he said to them: “Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you.
1 Peter 2:21-23 New International Version (NIV)
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”
When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.
I believe Jesus Christ acted wisely.