Isaiah 53:2.

[Ben Avraham]

Dear Ben,
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Psalm 110:1) Now if "my Lord" is sitting "at My right hand", how can, "My servant David...be king over them... on the land I gave to Jacob. and they will walk in My ordinances"? (Ez 37:24-25) It is only recently that "Judah" and "Jerusalem" have been "restored" (Joel 3:1). And definitely, the "stick of Ephraim" has not been combined with the "stick of Judah". (Ez 37:16-19). The "hunting down" of the "sons of Israel" has yet to begin (Jer 16:16), and the "nations" have not "come" from the "ends of the earth" (Jer 16:19) to say, "our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood". Is not "Ephraim" ... "crushed in judgment" , and "I will go away and return to My place until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face" (Hosea 5:14-15), and "he will revive us after two days/2000 years" (Hosea 6:2), after "they will earnestly seek Me." (Hosea 5:15).

While Judah and Jerusalem have been restored (Joel 3:1), "Jerusalem" has not been yet "captured" (Zech 14:2) after the "restoration". How can the "LORD" go forth and "fight against all those nations" (Zech 14:3), and set up a kingdom for king David (Ez 37:24) until "Jerusalem" is "captured"? Are not the "sons of Israel" told that it is necessary to both seek the "LORD their God and David their king"? (Hosea 3:5) I don't think too much will happen until the "nations" have been "gathered against Jerusalem" (Zech 14:2) & (Joel 3:2), and when they will be "crushed" (Daniel 2:34-35).

Yes, but according to the JPS a Jewish translation of the Tanach, "The Lord (God) said to my lord (David)... That's how the Levites chanted this Psalm in the Temple. Then the KJV capitalized the second word "lord" in order to enhance the credibility of Jesus as the one. That's called an anti-Jewish forgery interpolated into Psalm 110 to satisfy Christian preconceived notions. Regarding the nations gathering against Jerusalem in a war of Gog Magog, I hope you will be alive to read about the House of Israel burying the dead of the enemies after the battle of Gog Magog to cleanse the Land. (Ezekiel 39:11,12)

 

[metis]

Yes, but according to the JPS a Jewish translation of the Tanach, "The Lord (God) said to my lord (David)... That's how the Levites chanted this Psalm in the Temple. Then the KJV capitalized the second word "lord" in order to enhance the credibility of Jesus as the one. That's called an anti-Jewish forgery interpolated into Psalm 110 to satisfy Christian preconceived notions. Regarding the nations gathering against Jerusalem in a war of Gog Magog, I hope you will be alive to read about the House of Israel burying the dead of the enemies after the battle of Gog Magog to cleanse the Land. (Ezekiel 39:11,12)

Exactly. "Lord" (adonai), is not only a name for God, but also means over-seer, which can apply to someone like a supervisor, political leader, etc.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Exactly. "Lord" (adonai), is not only a name for God, but also means over-seer, which can apply to someone like a supervisor, political leader, etc.

Very nice! I couldn't have said any better!

 

[2ndpillar]

Yes, but according to the JPS a Jewish translation of the Tanach, "The Lord (God) said to my lord (David)... That's how the Levites chanted this Psalm in the Temple. Then the KJV capitalized the second word "lord" in order to enhance the credibility of Jesus as the one. That's called an anti-Jewish forgery interpolated into Psalm 110 to satisfy Christian preconceived notions. Regarding the nations gathering against Jerusalem in a war of Gog Magog, I hope you will be alive to read about the House of Israel burying the dead of the enemies after the battle of Gog Magog to cleanse the Land. (Ezekiel 39:11,12)

Dear ben,
I am not sure I followed you. I will admit scribes are liars (Jer 8:8), both Jewish and "Christian". I am not sure what difference that makes in this instance. King David is supposed to sit at the right hand of the (God), "until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Psalms 110:1) At what time was that event to begin? According to Zech 4:14, there are "two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth." Who are the two anointed ones, and who is the "Lord" in question? According to Hosea 5:15, "I will go away to My place". Which LORD/Lord/lord goes to and from "My place", and when does that happen? According to Hosea 6:2, it apparently happened 2 days/2000 years before "He will raise us up on the third day". According to Hosea 3, what first must happen is that the "sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king....in the last days".
As people of the nations become Jacob/Israel's servants (Isaiah 14:1-2), why doesn't Israel have their servants (set apart men) clean up the dead bodies (Ez 39:14)? I thought Israel was to avoid dead bodies which are "unclean".

 

[whirlingmerc]

Actually Eve was promised that 'the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent' , did you forget the virgin birth clause in Genesis?

How things 'come down' according to Rabbinic tradition is one thing... how things are promised by God, another ... and God promised 'the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent' in Genesis 4

 

[whirlingmerc]

The Jewish Christian creation scientist Jonathan Safati points out in Incarnation Why God became man - creation.com

"
That this passage was foretelling a divine seed was understood by Eve herself, as shown after she gave birth to Cain, the first human who began by normal conception and birth. She actually said something obscured by modern English translations but is clear in the Hebrew of Genesis 4:1:

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man: the LORD (YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah). "

That raises the issue that Eve may have been looking forward to an incarnation styled Messiah born of a woman, from the beginning... and who would 'crush the head of the serpent?" Moses? Joshua? Saul? David? .... no...

 

[whirlingmerc]

The whole point of Isaiah is dealing with the necessity of keeping the entire Law, including what happened when we violated it too much, how we would be "restored", and then finishing off with the necessity for us to follow the Law. This is the general theme of the entire book.

Well... no... examine Isaiah 51... God raises the issue of how Abraham became righteous.... and how did he? by faith not by the law... that didn't come for centuries

 

[Ben Avraham]

Dear ben,
I am not sure I followed you. I will admit scribes are liars (Jer 8:8), both Jewish and "Christian". I am not sure what difference that makes in this instance. King David is supposed to sit at the right hand of the (God), "until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Psalms 110:1) At what time was that event to begin? According to Zech 4:14, there are "two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth." Who are the two anointed ones, and who is the "Lord" in question? According to Hosea 5:15, "I will go away to My place". Which LORD/Lord/lord goes to and from "My place", and when does that happen? According to Hosea 6:2, it apparently happened 2 days/2000 years before "He will raise us up on the third day". According to Hosea 3, what first must happen is that the "sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king....in the last days".
As people of the nations become Jacob/Israel's servants (Isaiah 14:1-2), why doesn't Israel have their servants (set apart men) clean up the dead bodies (Ez 39:14)? I thought Israel was to avoid dead bodies which are "unclean".

You are way too literal in your reading of the Scriptures. No, King David is NOT supposed to sit at the right hand of God. That's a reference to Divine protection to keep him alive till his enemies became like a footstool under his feet. And that event began since David became King in Israel.

The two anointed ones standing by the Lord are Judah and Israel; and the Lord in question is HaShem as there is no other Lord. According to Hosea 5:15, the one going away to his place was Hosea. He had gone to Israel with the message of God for repentance and they would not acknowledge their guilty. Hosea returned to his place until they realized their guilty.

Israel was sick of their spiritual lethargy and, if they repented, in three days aka in a short time the Lord would raise aka cure them up. (Hosea 6:3) The avoidance of the dead bodies was for the Levites. Dead bodied left abandoned in the street could cause the break out of a plague. So, Jews are allowed to use of "Pichuah Nephesh" to get unclean as long as a plague is prevented which would be worse.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Actually Eve was promised that 'the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent' , did you forget the virgin birth clause in Genesis?

How things 'come down' according to Rabbinic tradition is one thing... how things are promised by God, another ... and God promised 'the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent' in Genesis 4

The woman was Israel and, the seed of the woman is Judah. When the virgin Israel according to Amos 5:2 gave rebirth to Judah whom Isaiah named Emmanuel if you read Isaiah 8:8, the virgin Israel passed away as the Scapegoat sent through the desert to Assyria and Judah remained in the whole of the Land of Israel as if feeding on milk & honey which means as the owner of the whole Land of Israel, North & South.

 

[metis]

Well... no... examine Isaiah 51... God raises the issue of how Abraham became righteous.... and how did he? by faith not by the law... that didn't come for centuries

That doesn't in any way refute what I wrote.

What we see overall happening in Torah is a gradual revealing of revelation, so the Mosaic Law wasn't in play at the time of Abraham but came into play during the Exodus, and also was mandated by the time Isaiah was written.

If you reread Isaiah, this issue of the Law and the mandate to follow it is paramount.

 

[wizanda]

If you reread Isaiah, this issue of the Law and the mandate to follow it is paramount.

If we reread Isaiah 1, we can see that what is most important is our intent, to be One with God's will; rituals are pointless if there is no real trust/faith within.

 

[rosends]

Exactly. "Lord" (adonai), is not only a name for God, but also means over-seer, which can apply to someone like a supervisor, political leader, etc.

I'm not sure where it refers to anything besides God. In 110:1, the word referring to a leader or boss (my master) is Adoni, not Adon-ai.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Because of it's preternatural symmetry with the Christian Gospels, modern Jews have tried to imply that Isaiah 53 isn't messianic. . . How can it be messianic when it speaks of a suffering, dying, atoning-sacrifice sort of messiah, who fits too nicely with that bloody Christianizing fella in the first century?

The Rabbis said: His [Messiah's] name is 'the leper scholar,' as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.​

BT Sanhedrin 98b.
​

We have it on no less authority than the Babylonian Talmud that Isaiah 53 is a picture of Messiah. Midrash Rabbah (Ruth) concurs:

The fifth interpretation [of Ruth 2:14] makes it refer to the Messiah. Come hither: approach to royal state. And eat of the BREAD refers to the bread of royalty; AND DIP THY MORSEL IN THE VINEGAR refers to his sufferings, as it is said, But he was wounded because of our transgressions. (Isa. LIII, 5).​

Likewise we have it on the authority of Maimonides, Nachmanides, and the Zohar (to name but a few), all of which are based on the oldest traditions, that Isaiah 53 is speaking of Messiah. -----I like what the Zohar says in Daniel Matt's very recent interpretation of Va-Yaqhel, 2:21a:

"In the Garden of Eden there is one chamber called the Chamber of the Ill. The Messiah then enters that chamber and calls for all the illnesses, all the pains, and all the sufferings of Israel to come upon him, and they all do so. And if he did not ease them off of Israel, taking them upon himself, no one could endure the suffering of Israel from the punishments of Torah, as is written: Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, [our pains that he endured] (Isaiah 53:4)."
​

Once it's conceded that Isaiah 53 is messianic, and it seems like an unbiased exegete can't help but acknowledge the context of the chapter ---nestled as it is among messianic passages ---- then it becomes an extremely meaningful task to look at the symbols used in that important chapter both to hide, and reveal, the identity of Messiah.


John

I always thought it interesting in kingdom of heaven movie there was a dude with lepers skin and then again in I think they eluded to it with brave heart.
Maybe a little imagination to it maybe, or maybe the dude doesn't have a lepers skin problem. Just found it weird that the picture of Zion of priority is with leprosy. Its always about who's going to be a king or something. Of course it doesn't work out always.
I don't know where they get the leprosy from. I just don't think if there was a dude like that he had it.

 

[metis]

I'm not sure where it refers to anything besides God. In 110:1, the word referring to a leader or boss (my master) is Adoni, not Adon-ai.

Thanks for the correction. Also, what I failed to mention (because I forgot), is that the first "Lord" is the Tetragrammon name for God. Right?

 

[metis]

If we reread Isaiah 1, we can see that what is most important is our intent, to be One with God's will; rituals are pointless if there is no real trust/faith within.

Absolutely, as it's a one-two step approach: faith and then incorporating the faith into moral actions. The Law itself is based on both.

 

[RabbiO]

Also, what I failed to mention (because I forgot), is that the first "Lord" is the Tetragrammon name for God. Right?

You were going to get a gold star until I realized that you left out an "a" and a "t" from tetragrammaton!

 

[Rival]

You were going to get a gold star until I realized that you left out an "a" and a "t" from tetragrammaton!

Hey at least it wasn't 'tetragammon'.

 

[2ndpillar]

You are way too literal in your reading of the Scriptures. No, King David is NOT supposed to sit at the right hand of God. That's a reference to Divine protection to keep him alive till his enemies became like a footstool under his feet. And that event began since David became King in Israel.

The two anointed ones standing by the Lord are Judah and Israel; and the Lord in question is HaShem as there is no other Lord. According to Hosea 5:15, the one going away to his place was Hosea. He had gone to Israel with the message of God for repentance and they would not acknowledge their guilty. Hosea returned to his place until they realized their guilty.

Israel was sick of their spiritual lethargy and, if they repented, in three days aka in a short time the Lord would raise aka cure them up. (Hosea 6:3) The avoidance of the dead bodies was for the Levites. Dead bodied left abandoned in the street could cause the break out of a plague. So, Jews are allowed to use of "Pichuah Nephesh" to get unclean as long as a plague is prevented which would be worse.

Dear ben,
How was it that Hosea was "like a rottenness to Judah", and "like a moth to Ephraim". Is not Ephraim" "crushed in judgment" (Hosea 5:11) by the LORD (Hosea 5:6), and not Hosea? As for Hosea 3, was it really about Hosea buying an "adulteress" for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, "for many days" (Hosea 3:3), or about "the LORD" (Hosea 3:1), who "loves the sons of Israel, though they turn to other gods, and love raison cakes".

As for the dead bodies, are the Jews made unclean by touching dead bodies or not? Are you saying that your "Pichua Nephesh" would not apply to the Levites? To save the whole of Israel, by dragging a dead body out of the street, the Levite would not be able to do such a deed? Could they not sacrifice a bull to make atonement for the Levite? (Lev 16:6)

 

[2ndpillar]

You are way too literal in your reading of the Scriptures. No, King David is NOT supposed to sit at the right hand of God. That's a reference to Divine protection to keep him alive till his enemies became like a footstool under his feet. And that event began since David became King in Israel.

The two anointed ones standing by the Lord are Judah and Israel; and the Lord in question is HaShem as there is no other Lord. According to Hosea 5:15, the one going away to his place was Hosea. He had gone to Israel with the message of God for repentance and they would not acknowledge their guilty. Hosea returned to his place until they realized their guilty.

Israel was sick of their spiritual lethargy and, if they repented, in three days aka in a short time the Lord would raise aka cure them up. (Hosea 6:3) The avoidance of the dead bodies was for the Levites. Dead bodied left abandoned in the street could cause the break out of a plague. So, Jews are allowed to use of "Pichuah Nephesh" to get unclean as long as a plague is prevented which would be worse.

Dear ben,
With respect to your synapsis of the "two anointed ones standing by the Lord are Judah and Israel", how is it that "Lord" means "HaShem", the common name for God, and that "LORD" stands for the proper name, when Psalm 110:1 says "the LORD says to my Lord", that would be like saying God said to God? As there is only one God, are you sure you are getting this right?

As for Zechariah 4:14, since when is God/LORD limited to being "Lord of the whole earth". I thought God was LORD of all of creation, which would include the whole universe.

If My servant David is going to be king over the stick of Ephraim and the stick of Judah, in the land that I gave to Jacob (Ez 37), won't David be the one given the authority over the earth at that time? And who is the "angel of the LORD" (Zech 12:8)? And who is it that the "inhabitants of Jerusalem" will look upon, "whom they have pierced"? Did they pierce the LORD, or the "angel of the LORD" (Zech 12:8)?

As Zech 12:1-8 has already occurred with respect to the 67 and 73 Israeli war, when will the ball drop on "I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (Zech 12:9), seeing as the mourning with respect to "Megiddo" has not yet occurred. (Zech 12:11) & (Zech 14:2).

 

[metis]

You were going to get a gold star until I realized that you left out an "a" and a "t" from tetragrammaton!

Hey, that's big word, so cut me some slack, will ya!

Shabbat shalom