Isaiah 53:2.

[whirlingmerc]

Thanks for your kind words but the Messiah was to be 'seed of the woman' and bearing shame
is something Jeremiah the prophet was familiar with as well

 

[Ben Avraham]

Sure... and Jesus is the son of David.

But in the book of Zechariah the branch is both priest and king, so it's even more than King
and in Psalms 109, 110 the poor man helped by God is lifted to be on the order of Melchizedek, a priest king as well


The figure 'the branch' in Isaiah 11 is both root and offspring of Jesse by the way
which fits with the New Testament claim that Jesus is 'root and offspring of David'
and of course 'the Messiah' can exist forever if he is resurrected to eternal life

The claim in the NT that Jesus was from the lineage of David came from Paul, the founder of Christianity without having ever seen Jesus. (Acts 11:26) What authority did Paul, a man who claimed to have been released from the Law, have to anoint a Jew as from the lineage of David if he never even saw him? (II Timothy 2:8) The same Law Paul claimed to having been released from was the Law Jesus taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[metis]

The actual lineage of 10 of the 12 tribes was lost resulting from the Babylonian Exile, also do to the fact that they began to intermarry. Therefore, anyone could claim they came from David's line, and a great many did according to historians, and it was virtually impossible to prove them false.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The actual lineage of 10 of the 12 tribes was lost resulting from the Babylonian Exile, also do to the fact that they began to intermarry. Therefore, anyone could claim they came from David's line, and a great many did according to historians, and it was virtually impossible to prove them false.

I think that contributed heavily with elimination of the Tribal system in Israel with the establishment of the New Covenant aka the Jewish New World Order.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Mary and Joseph would have known their lineage and most traditions have the genealogy in Luke belonging to Mary (his biological lineage) and the one in Matthew as Joseph ( his legal lineage)

 

[Muffled]

You didn't even begin to deal with the verses I posted that dealt with your statements about Jesus and the Law, so it appears all you did was to post the above only for your own edification.

I believe there is no statement in Is 53 about keeping the law.

 

[metis]

I believe there is no statement in Is 53 about keeping the law.

The whole point of Isaiah is dealing with the necessity of keeping the entire Law, including what happened when we violated it too much, how we would be "restored", and then finishing off with the necessity for us to follow the Law. This is the general theme of the entire book.

 

[wizanda]

I believe there is no statement in Is 53 about keeping the law.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I've come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I've not come to destroy, yet to fulfill. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle shall be removed from the Law, until all things are fulfilled."

 

[whirlingmerc]

There is only one option for you to be right about this but, I am sure you won't take it because, you prefer to be on the wrong side of this issue than to contradict Christian preconceived notions. The option is that you must agree that Jesus was a biological son of Joseph. That's the only chance Jesus had to be of the lineage of David. If you don't agree, Jesus was still a Jew because of Mary his mother but a Jew without a Tribe in Israel. Think carefully because, to be a Jew without a Tribe in Israel at that time was a big shame because, according to Josephus, the Roman soldiers in Israel raped thousands of young Jewish ladies and thousands of little momzers were born without Jewish fathers.

So.. Jesus was willing to bear shame... why would that be a problem ? But bearing shame because God is your father? That is unfounded shame. Honor in the eyes of God trumps shame in the eyes of man.

 

[whirlingmerc]

The whole point of Isaiah is dealing with the necessity of keeping the entire Law, including what happened when we violated it too much, how we would be "restored", and then finishing off with the necessity for us to follow the Law. This is the general theme of the entire book.

There are various purposes of the law. So I agree, we are not justified by works of the law
but... 1) the law helps us see the righteousness of God and how man falls short, bringing us to christ.
2) Also there is a transformation, in Colossians 1 the fruitful faith working in love of the Colossians started the day they understood the grace of God in truth. 3) And the law, reflects the character of God and so a fruit of saving faith will be to follow the spirit of the law God is first, holy, truthful, trustworthy and that should be reflected in love of God and love of neighbor. Saving faith is the root, works are the fruit.

 

[2ndpillar]

Deutero-Isaiah (the latter chapters of the prophet) are pretty much all messianic to one degree or other. A more theologically important questions concerns the difference between Messiah as an individual Jew, versus Israel as a messianic people? Israel is unquestioningly a messianic people with a profound messianic mission. So distinguishing between Israel as a messianic people, and Messiah as an individual Jew is a meaningful endeavor when exegeting Deutero-Isaiah.



John

Dear john,
I take it that Greek is your primary language, and that English is your secondary language. Can you write in Spanish, so that we can figure out the punch line of your story. What is your point for discussion?

 

[2ndpillar]

I have a word or two about the individual and collective concepts of Messiah. Individually, the Messiah cannot exist more than one generation. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) And if you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God, if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

Dear Ben,
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Psalm 110:1) Now if "my Lord" is sitting "at My right hand", how can, "My servant David...be king over them... on the land I gave to Jacob. and they will walk in My ordinances"? (Ez 37:24-25) It is only recently that "Judah" and "Jerusalem" have been "restored" (Joel 3:1). And definitely, the "stick of Ephraim" has not been combined with the "stick of Judah". (Ez 37:16-19). The "hunting down" of the "sons of Israel" has yet to begin (Jer 16:16), and the "nations" have not "come" from the "ends of the earth" (Jer 16:19) to say, "our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood". Is not "Ephraim" ... "crushed in judgment" , and "I will go away and return to My place until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face" (Hosea 5:14-15), and "he will revive us after two days/2000 years" (Hosea 6:2), after "they will earnestly seek Me." (Hosea 5:15).

While Judah and Jerusalem have been restored (Joel 3:1), "Jerusalem" has not been yet "captured" (Zech 14:2) after the "restoration". How can the "LORD" go forth and "fight against all those nations" (Zech 14:3), and set up a kingdom for king David (Ez 37:24) until "Jerusalem" is "captured"? Are not the "sons of Israel" told that it is necessary to both seek the "LORD their God and David their king"? (Hosea 3:5) I don't think too much will happen until the "nations" have been "gathered against Jerusalem" (Zech 14:2) & (Joel 3:2), and when they will be "crushed" (Daniel 2:34-35).

 

[Reggie Miller]

If you read all of the 53rd chapter of Isaiah you can see that the text MUST be referring to Jesus Christ.

No serious attempt to thwart this can be made.

 

[Repox]

Deutero-Isaiah (the latter chapters of the prophet) are pretty much all messianic to one degree or other. A more theologically important questions concerns the difference between Messiah as an individual Jew, versus Israel as a messianic people? Israel is unquestioningly a messianic people with a profound messianic mission. So distinguishing between Israel as a messianic people, and Messiah as an individual Jew is a meaningful endeavor when exegeting Deutero-Isaiah.



John

I believe the verse is meant to describe God's chosen people. "He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground." Before God chose Abram, he was like others on earth struggling for survival. "He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him." Until God intervened in Abram's life and before Abram became Abraham, he had nothing to differentiate him from other men. However, after God chose Abram, he became special because he had been chosen to begin God's great crusade. "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those wo bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Gen 12:2-3)

Regarding Jesus and the verse, I don't believe Jesus was the son of God. Insofar as God didn't come into the world as a sacrificial lamb for humankind, there have been many misinterpretations. God came into the world as Jesus to give testimony to his chosen people.

 

[metis]

There are various purposes of the law. So I agree, we are not justified by works of the law
but... 1) the law helps us see the righteousness of God and how man falls short, bringing us to christ.
2) Also there is a transformation, in Colossians 1 the fruitful faith working in love of the Colossians started the day they understood the grace of God in truth. 3) And the law, reflects the character of God and so a fruit of saving faith will be to follow the spirit of the law God is first, holy, truthful, trustworthy and that should be reflected in love of God and love of neighbor. Saving faith is the root, works are the fruit.

But within both the Tanakh and the N.T., there are far more verses dealing with the necessity of living the faith rather then just sitting back and having nice p.c. beliefs. And the danger of the latter emphasis can be found in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats in Matthew 25, whereas the goats have faith about Jesus but not in Jesus through their actions.

Therefore, I must conclude that "faith" and "works" (i.e. living out the faith through one's actions) make up the "root" and not just the former.

 

[whirlingmerc]

faith is the root and works are the fruit.

But how do you take '... the Lord has laid the iniquity of US ALL on HIM...'? The plural on the singular

throw away words or Jesus dying for a group?

 

[metis]

faith is the root and works are the fruit.

Depends on how one defines "faith". The question I would have to ask is whether a person has a faith in him and not just about him? And if one has faith in him, then I would propose that acting on their faith as Jesus taught is of paramount importance. To me, based on what other verses we see, the latter ("about") probably doesn't suffice. So, iyo, do you agree or not?

But how do you take '... the Lord has laid the iniquity of US ALL on HIM...'? The plural on the singular

throw away words or Jesus dying for a group?

That's beyond the scope of our discussion. However, since you asked, "Eloheim" is indeed plural, but probably most scholars of scripture believe that it's probably a reference to God and the "heavenly hosts" that work with Him. Jesus clearly cannot be God as Jesus frequently draws a distinction through referring to God as "the Father", plus adding that it is "the Father" that knows what's going to happen and not necessarily Jesus himself.

Trinitarians love to play fast & loose with such verses, but it's really just a manifestation of their "confirmation bias". Even within the RCC, the concept of the Trinity is typically referred to as "the mystery of the Trinity". IOW, It's beyond our ability to comprehend.

 

[Ben Avraham]

faith is the root and works are the fruit.

But how do you take '... the Lord has laid the iniquity of US ALL on HIM...'? The plural on the singular

throw away words or Jesus dying for a group?

That's Prophet Isaiah who was a Judahite speaking about Israel on whom HaShem laid the iniquity of us all aka Judah. Jesus died for no group because the Prophets of the Most High teach that no one can die for the sins of another if you read Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:3,20.

 

[Ben Avraham]

If you read all of the 53rd chapter of Isaiah you can see that the text MUST be referring to Jesus Christ.

No serious attempt to thwart this can be made.

According to whom, you or to Christian preconceived notions?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Mary and Joseph would have known their lineage and most traditions have the genealogy in Luke belonging to Mary (his biological lineage) and the one in Matthew as Joseph ( his legal lineage)

Even if Mary had been one of the daughters of David, it would not help the case of Jesus. Tribal inheritance came down only through the father. If Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph who was the one from the Tribe of Judah, he was still a Jew because of Mary but a Jew without a Tribe in Israel. Such a condition was abhorrent in Israel!