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Featured Isaiah 49:21.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by John D. Brey, Mar 7, 2021.

  1. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Then shalt thou say in thine heart, who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? And who hath brought up these? Behold I was left alone; these, where had they been?

    Isaiah 49:21.​

    As is the case throughout chapter 49 of Isaiah, verse 21 personifies Zion. The verse is the confounded response of the personified Zion to the fact that more are the offspring of the barren woman than those of Sarah or Keturah, even though the latter got a rather large head start. Verse 20 is the desire of Zion's children to find more space to grow and expand. But where did these children come from? And how?

    The response to Zion's question takes the serious bible student on an an exegetical journey whose path has, until recently, been guarded, so that the Eden-like fruit ----i.e., the answer ---- to the question concerning the conception and birth of Zion's children might be postponed until immediately prior to the return of mankind to Eden's precincts. The answer to Zion's query in Isaiah 49:21 is therefore a herald of the imminent arrival of the glorified Zion and her children both of whom are associated with the Kingdom Age.



    John
     
  2. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    The Lord's answer to Zion's query has been guarded by the Masoretic text, and the traditions of the Masoretes, till this very day, such that the fact of our finding the gate to Eden abandoned by the principalities and powers commanded to guard them should excite us beyond measure.

    Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, And set up my banner to the People [of Israel]. And thy sons shall enter [Zion] with it in their bosom, and thy daughters shall wear it around their neck [over their shoulders].

    Isaiah 49:22.

    For he [God] hath clothed me with garments of salvation, covered my bosom with righteousness, as the ornament [חשן] of a circumcised priest, which is like the jewelry a bride wears between her breast.

    Isaiah 61:10.​



    John
     
    #2 John D. Brey, Mar 7, 2021
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  3. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    The key to Eden, the Kingdom, exists in the relationship between the two verses above. Merely understanding what God is saying when he answer's Zion's query about where her children (who wear her) come from is like a password to gain entrance to the Kingdom. And yet part and parcel of understanding God's answer requires a short exegetical foray into the statements just prior to Isaiah 61:10, i.e., 61:8-9:

    And I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. And their seed shall be known by the Gentiles, and their offspring among the People [of Israel]. All that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the Lord hath blessed.

    Isaiah 61:8-9.​

    Throughout Isaiah the Gentiles גוים are juxtaposed with the People of Israel [העמים is often a term used to distinguish Israel from the Gentile nations]. With that understanding as the prism for interpreting the verses above we have the remarkable statement that the children of the personified and redeemed Zion will be "known" ידע by the Gentiles, and they will be "among" תוך the People of Israel. They're neither Jew nor Gentile. The Gentiles will know ידע something about them, while the People of Israel, though among them, and they among the People of Israel, will be dumbfounded about them because of the traditions handed down and codified by the Masoretes precisely to guard against a premature knowledge concerning the birth of the children of Zion.

    For ye are all the children of God [born] by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ [as a garment between your bosom]. There is neither Jew nor Greek . . . all are one [species, 2 Cor. 5:17] in [or directly behind the bosom-borne] Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 3:25.​

    Rabbi Samson R. Hirsch stated the profound fact that any truth that supposes to be new, rather than a revelation of a prior truth, is instead a lie, at best. Which is to say that if the children born to Zion will wear Zion as a bosom-borne ornament of salvation, i.e., will be clothed with Zion, as the high priest was clothed with his Chosen חשן ornament, then that truth cannot be new, but must be merely a revelation of an old truth that was merely being guarded by those called as guardians and protectors, even scribes, until the chosen time for the birth or revelation of the truth.



    John
     
    #3 John D. Brey, Mar 7, 2021
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  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Interesting read.

    Do you think it's imperative that the children of Zion be 'born again' believers?
     
  5. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Dispensational theology, as opposed to Covenant theology, situates "the Church" as neither Jewish, nor Gentile. The Church (or Body of Christ), doesn't replace Israel, or the covenants to Israel. Nor is it a religion made up of either Jews or Gentiles, though the two latter are include in the Church body.

    Part and parcel of the exegesis in this thread is the idea that you can't even begin to properly interpret the prophet Isaiah without acknowledging the literal meaning of passages like 61:8-9, which speak of a new covenant made up not of Jews or Gentiles (though both enter the covenant), but a covenant made up of the children born to Zion during her bereavement.

    Properly interpreted, Zion's bereavement is related to the destruction of the second temple in AD 70. So the covenant related to the offspring of Zion begins with the destruction of the temple in AD 70. And since this is a new covenant, and the children of the covenant are born after the destruction of the temple, it's telling that Isaiah implies that the Gentiles will know of the children of this covenant, and that the children of this covenant will live among the Jews, and the Jews among them.

    A theologically adept reader might query as to why the children of Zion would be born after the destruction of the temple in AD 70 since then the apostles and believers in the singular suffering servant (borne in the bosom) who are reborn prior to AD 70 would have been reborn prior to the start of the new covenant?

    Although it would require another thread itself to explain fully, it's the case that the heart and soul of a temple is the veil separating the most holy place from the holy place. As a woman loses her sanctified virginity when her womanly veil is torn, and according to Philo she loses her androgynous sanctity at that moment as well (according to him a female virgin isn't a gendered person until her veil is torn), so to, a stone temple is destroyed if its veil is torn or eliminated.

    The true destruction of the second temple occurred 40 year prior to the Roman sack of Jerusalem in AD 70. There was an eclipse, of sorts, an earthquake, and when the lunar darkness was over, and the adamah stopped shaking, the Jewish priests found the veil in the temple rent asunder.

    They repaired the veil and thus the temple, and thus the People of Israel, practiced the broken covenant for another 40 years at which time what was actually deceased decades early was finally interned in the ground.



    John
     
    #5 John D. Brey, Mar 7, 2021
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  6. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Without covering ground already exegeted over the last decade in numerous threads here, the "banner," defined as a priestly ornament, is fundamentally related to three idolatrous icons found in the scripture. The first is Moses' rod, later named Nehushtan, which is itself directly associated with the breastplate of the high priest, called the "chosen," and finally, the bosom-borne rod of judgement, the branch bearing the fruit of salvation, aka, the crucifix:

    FOR I LIFT UP MY HAND TO HEAVEN. By way of the plain meaning of Scripture this is an oath by His throne. He states I lift up, for whoever takes an oath raises his hand and touches the object by which he swears. And by way of the Truth [the mystic teachings of the Cabala], during the time of exile He hath cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel. He, therefore states that now in an acceptable time He will lift His hand to the highest heavens, the reference being to the great hand that fights on behalf of Israel.

    Ramban, Commentary on the Torah, Deuteronomy 32:40 (emphasis mine).

    Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, And set up my banner to the People [of Israel]. And thy sons shall enter [Zion] with it in their bosom, and thy daughters shall wear it around their neck [over their shoulders].

    Isaiah 49:22.

    For he [God] hath clothed me with garments of salvation, covered my bosom with righteousness, as the ornament [חשן] of a circumcised priest, which is like the jewelry a bride wears between her breast.

    Isaiah 61:10.
    The genesis of the three idolatrous icons occurs when Moses meets the Lord hidden behind the burning bush on the mount of God. At that time the Lord God informs Moses that he (Moses) has been chosen to lead the People of Israel to the promised land. When Moses replies that only if they believe he's seen the Lord God himself would the People trust him, God responds in the most ironic fashion: What's that in your hand. God subsequently informs Moses that his serpent rod, later called Nehushtan, is an idolatrous icon representing the burning bush, and thus the theophany of God that Moses personally experienced.

    The three quotations of scripture given above segue to Moses on the mount, with God in the burning bush. After informing Moses that Nehushtan, his serpent rod, is an ornament, or banner, representing the burning bush, he, the Lord, then tells Moses something that should make anyone following this exegesis snap to attention: Place the burning bush, the theophany of the Lord, in your bosom, where it will become as leprous as snow; and then pluck it out of thy bosom where it will be healed and as other flesh.

    God next informs Moses of something seminal to Isaiah's prophesy. He tells Moses that if Israel doesn't believe the theophany associated with the leprous, bosom-borne icon of the burning bush, i.e, the leprous theophany of the Lord, then when it's plucked out of God's bosom and made normal flesh again, that is, redeemed, saved, from the leprosy, then, if not before, Israel will believe (Exodus 4:6-7).

    Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? Pluck it out of thy bosom.

    Psalms 74:11.

    Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people --- where is he who brought them through the sea with the shepherd [rod] of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them, who sent his glorious arm of power [Nehushtan] to be at Moses' right hand, who divided the waters before them, to gain for himself everlasting renown . . . you are our Father, though Abraham doesn't know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

    Isaiah 63:11-16.​



    John
     
    #6 John D. Brey, Mar 7, 2021
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  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    If the Church does not replace Israel then what do you understand the future role of Israel to be?
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Since Pentecost the Israel of God is Not fleshly national Israel, but 'spiritual Israel' the Christian congregation.
    - 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 2:5.
    A 'spiritual nation' that has No borders nor boundaries and Not found located on any map.
    Not any more a Jew by descent - see Romans 2:28-29.
    So, the ' kingdom age ' is associated with both: Jews and non-Jews who choose to follow Jesus.
    This is why Jesus wants us to ask for God's kingdom to come.... ( thy kingdom come....)
    And as Revelation 22:20 invites us to pray for Jesus to come ! Come as King of God's Kingdom.
    Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2.
     
  9. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    A pickle. Not the future role of Israel. But trying to understand what it might be.



    John
     
  10. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . I don't see anything in there that I disagree with. <s>



    John
     
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  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure this is the whole story.

    In a book by John Wilkinson, entitled 'Israel My Glory' (1891), the author presents an argument that explains why God wishes to restore Israel.

    Point 1. 'A restoration is predicted as a second one. Now the first restoration was from Babylonish captivity, and that only a partial one of some fifty or sixty thousand persons. The second must be future [to 1891].' He quotes Micah 4:6-8; Isaiah 11:11.

    Point 2. 'A restoration is predicted "from the four corners of the earth." ' He quotes from Isaiah 11:12.

    Point 3. 'A restoration is predicted after which there shall never be another dispersion.' He quotes from Isaiah 60:21,22. Jeremiah 24:6; Joel 3:20 and Amos 9:14,15.

    Point 4. 'Because the promised land is still the land of promise, having never yet been possessed in all its promised length and breadth.' He quotes from Genesis 25:18; Ezekiel 48.

    Point 5. 'The tribes are to be differently located, and the land differently distributed, from any previous possession of the land.' Ezekiel 48. Ezekiel 36:24-28; Ezekiel 39:25,27-29; Jeremiah 32:37-41; Jeremiah 33:7-9.

    Wilkinson adds these words, 'the Jews are not to be restored for immediate blessing, for between national restoration to Palestine and national blessing we are to have the "time of Jacob's trouble".

    We can now see, from the vantage point of time gone by, that the restoration has begun, but possibly not the "time of Jacob's trouble". This is Wilkinson's exposition:
    'The Jews having now been partially restored to Palestine in unbelief; Gentile power having culminated in the gathered forces of Antichrist; the Jews crushed by Gentiles; "the quarrel of God's covenant" settled in the land; and the "time of Jacob's trouble" passed; the Gentile power is broken and Antichrist destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ in person.' He quotes Zechariah 14:1-5,9. Also Zechariah 12:9,10 and Zechariah 13:1.
    'The sight of the Lord Jesus Christ breaks the heart of the national remnant surviving the crushing power of Antichrist. The universal mourning is followed by a national cleansing in the fountain of Messiah's atoning cleansing blood. Here we have the fulfilment of Romans 11:26. All Israel saved, on the coming to Zion of the Deliverer, who turns away ungodliness from Jacob. This Divine Deliverer coming for the national salvation of Israel is promised in the latter part of Isaiah 59 with which ch.60 should be read.'

    'Israel restored and blessed becomes, according to the revealed purpose of God, a blessing to all nations. God's purpose to bless the world through the seed of Abraham was clearly revealed to him when first called to leave his country.' He quotes Psalm 102:13-16.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    First of all, I wonder why Wilkinson uses a Capital letter "A" for anti-Christ because everyone who is against Christ is anti-Christ.
    I find Zechariah 8:22 is in connection to Psalms 102:15 and Isaiah 60:3.
    Zechariah 12:10 shows Jesus was surely dead in connection to Psalms 34:20 and fulfilled at John 19:33-37.
    Zechariah 13:1 in connection to Ezekiel 36:25; Ezekiel 36:29
    Zechariah 14:1-5 in connection to Amos 1:1 when Zechariah made mention of the earthquake after Amos was prophet.
    So, the mount of olive trees is standing for God's universal sovereignty or God's supreme rulership, verse 9.

    You might find 2 Thessalonians 2:2-12 to be of interest.
    The composite 'man of sin' the 'son of destruction' (perdition) verse 3 are the ones who seat themselves in the ' temple ' (houses of worship) verse 4, as if they are God but in reality they are anti-God.
    So, they are the false clergy who are like the Pharisees of Jesus' day - ( Matthew chapter 23 ' woes ' )
    The old Jewish house was abandoned by God according to Jesus at Matthew 23:37-38.

    This is more like the time of Zephaniah 1:14-18 in connection to Zechariah 14:9.
    In the larger fulfillment of Zechariah 12:9 is in connection to the larger fulfillment of Haggai 2:22; Isaiah 54:17.

    Remember since Pentecost the 'Israel of God' is Now Spiritual Israel, a Spiritual Nation - 1 Peter 2:9,5
    Who is Now a Jew is mentioned at Romans 2:28-29 . No longer by fleshly descent.
    'Jerusalem above' is Now the seat of government - Galatians 4:26
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Since Pentecost there is No future role for fleshly national Israel because since Pentecost the ' Israel of God ' is a spiritual nation made up of both Jews and non-Jews - please see Romans 2:28-29.
    It is Jerusalem 'above' that is Now the seat of government - Galatians 4:26
    Jerusalem above can't be found on any map and has No borders or No boundaries on any map.
     
  14. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Unconditional covenants were made to "fleshly national Israel" that can't be fulfilled through the Church. And since those unconditional covenants to fleshly, national, Israel, haven't yet been fulfilled (as noted by Wilkinson in Redemptionsong's post) national Israel seemingly has a future role in history.



    John
     
  15. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Various places in Isaiah imply that the children of the redeemed Zion are neither Jewish nor Gentile, but, as Paul implies (2 Corinthians 5:17), a new spiritual species, not tethered directly to a plot of land on planet earth.

    That doesn't do away with Jews and Gentiles, both of whom, some at least, are found out to be part of the new spiritual species in Christ.

    When the Rapture occurs, all members of the Body of Christ are resurrected never again to be mere mortals. And yet after the Rapture occurs, human history continues on with Jews and Gentiles, believers, and unbelievers.

    After the Rapture there will never be another member of the Body of Christ since the Rapture is the completion of that epoch. And yet Jews and Gentiles will continue to be converted to faith in Jesus Christ after the Rapture, without that conversion transforming them into members of the Body of Christ.


    John
     
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Since there is No Rapture but resurrection ( flesh 'physical ' can Not inherit the kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:50 )
    The great crowd of people of Revelation 7:14,9 comes through the great tribulation.
    That great crowd will be here on Earth just as Isaiah 26:20 writes.

    Remember: Jesus said 'just as the days of Noah....', and there was No Rapture for Noah and family.
    Rather, there is a coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37.
    The figurative humble ' sheep ' remain on Earth and will be alive here on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth for a thousand years. - Proverbs 2:21-22
     
  17. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    I subscribe to premillennial dispensationalism which interprets the scriptures to say that the Church will be resurrected prior to the tribulation.



    John
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, those called to heaven to reign with Christ over Earth - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10 -
    so there is No need to doubt resurrected prior or at the Tribulation which climaxes in Armageddon.
    Armageddon: the war to end all wars -> Psalms 46:9
    The reason I can agree about this resurrection being pre-millennial is because of Revelation 17:14.
    There it informs us about the Lamb (aka Jesus) and 'they that are with Jesus are called: chosen and faithful'.
    Thus they could be part of the heavenly 'armies' of Revelation 19:14.
    In order to take part they would have to already had that first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20:6

    The figurative humble meek or 'sheep' at that time which is also Jesus' Glory Time of Matthew 25:31-33,37 can remain alive on Earth and continue to live on Earth because they go through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:9,14; Isaiah 26:20.
    Those called to heavenly life will govern over those living figurative ' sheep ' on Earth - Revelation 5:9-10.
     
  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The Church Age, the 'mystery' hidden in the prophecies of the Tanakh [Col.1:26], is made known to Paul, who says,
    'For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.
    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
    [Romans 11:25-27]

    The question, I believe, is not 'IF' but 'WHEN' national Israel (a remnant of Jacob, possibly) will be grafted back in 'to their own olive tree'. Paul seems to make this clear in Romans ch. 11. But the grafting back must be as the result of faith in Jesus Christ.

    Going back to Genesis, I understand we have there a prologue that sets the time span of Adam's week, the Prophetic week of God. This seven day week is referred to throughout the scriptures [see 2 Peter 3:8], and indicates that the Seventh day is the Sabbatical day of rest, the Millennium [Rev. 20:4]. If this day of rest refers to peace on earth, then I imagine there has to be a 'flesh and blood' people inhabiting the earth.

    I do not believe that the 'new heaven and earth' comes into being until after the Millennium is complete. This offers a possibility for Israel's national promises to be fulfilled during the Millennium [Genesis 15:18-21].

    If the saints of God, the spiritual temple of Christ, the priesthood, are made incorruptible and taken out of this world at the Rapture, then they also return immortal with Christ (the High Priest) at his coming [Zech.14:5; 1 Thess. 3:13]. But can an incorruptible and immortal people live on a corruptible earth?

    The Millennium may be the opportunity for national Israel to perform it's role and function as the governmental centre on earth. Law, together with grace, is required for there to be a functional government on earth.
     
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  20. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    I Agree with what you're saying.

    As part of the exegesis of Isaiah, it appears that there might be three spiritual species at the time of the Rapture: Israel, believing Gentiles, and the Children of Zion, who, in places throughout Isaiah, appear to be distinct from believing Jews, and believing Gentiles.

    In the so called "Old Testament" Jews are called into a covenant of law and obedience. It might be considered a natural covenant that's based on the natural human ability to accept God's authority and respond in a covenantal, positive, way.

    Likewise, those Gentiles and Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah, and or Godman, but who accept it based on the natural, human ability, to reason, and believe, in God, and his servants, represent a new covenant based on the arrival of Messiah rather than the giving of the Torah.

    Lastly is a mysterious people, a new spiritual species, who are not Jews, or believing Gentiles, but a new species whose relationship to Jesus Christ is not as mere believers in him, and his teaching, but, this last category, are actually his direct offspring.

    Whereas Jews and Gentiles enter a relationship with God based on hearing and believing, the Children of Zion, who are the direct offspring of Jesus Christ, believe not from an act of obedience to God, or Christ, ala the Jews and the Gentiles; they believe because they have a direct, seminal, so to say, relationship to Christ since he's their sire.

    To say they have a "seminal" relationship to Christ is not to say Christ's seed conceives them through a mother, but rather, that this seed functions, conceives, its offspring, in a non-sexual, non-gendered, manner. . . Nevertheless, it would be profitable to this study to understand the difference between those Christ conceives as his own kin, versus those who believe in his name and thereby enter the Gentile covenant as believers in Christ?


    John
     
    #20 John D. Brey, Mar 10, 2021
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