Isaiah 48.

[John D. Brey]

I recall hearing/reading somewhere that this is clearest in Isaiah. Is that true? Do any others come close?

In my opinion, Isaiah gets many of his cues from the Psalms. Much of what's in Isaiah is first in Psalms. Secondarily, and again, in my opinion, Nehushtan is the central character, hidden in most cases, in Isaiah. Nehushtan is the key to Isaiah and Isaiah is key to much of the Tanakh.



John

 

[InChrist]

"Listen to this, O house of Jacob, you who are called by the name of Israel."

Isaiah 48:1.​

This, "you are called by the name of Israel" is pejorative in context: Do you seriously think you deserve to be called Israel? Throughout the chapter two persons or personages are juxtaposed both related to the name "Israel":

Two nations are in thy womb בטנ, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels מעי, and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; though the elder, shall serve the younger.

Gen 25:23.​

As stated in verse 6 of Isaiah chapter 48, one of the two peoples (the latter, younger) associated with the name "Israel" are "hidden" (נערות) from the elder "Israel" in plain sight (נערות):

John​

​

The scriptures do not give any indication of two Israels or a hidden Israel. The text is clear “ two nations are in thy womb and two manner of people”. The twins born were Jacob and Esau. Those nations were Israel and Edom. Jacob was the father of Israel and Esau the father of Edom...
And this is the genealogy of Esau the father of the Edomites in Mount Seir (Genesis 36:9).

 

[John D. Brey]

The scriptures do not give any indication of two Israels or a hidden Israel. The text is clear “ two nations are in thy womb and two manner of people”.

These things may be taken figuratively . . .

Galatians 4:24.​

John

 

[John D. Brey]

In my opinion, Isaiah gets many of his cues from the Psalms. Much of what's in Isaiah is first in Psalms. Secondarily, and again, in my opinion, Nehushtan is the central character, hidden in most cases, in Isaiah. Nehushtan is the key to Isaiah and Isaiah is key to much of the Tanakh.

and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit [Jonathan paraphrases:] Said the prophet, “And now, the Lord God has sent me, and His word.” This is an intermingling of words. The one who said this did not say that [i.e., the first part of the verse was said by God, and the second part by the prophet].

Rashi, Isaiah 48:16.​

Rashi is dealing with the mezuzah on the door into the sanctuary of the chapter. In verse 16, the deity is speaking. Ironically, problematically, the speaker, who is undeniably deity, says the Lord-God and his Spirit hath sent me. There's no transition to justify Rashi's imposition (with Johnathan) that the speaker somehow suddenly shifted from the deity (who Rashi concedes is speaking) to the speech of the prophet. Rashi spends no small amount of verbiage trying to justify the invisible and non-existent transition from deity to prophet. It's a study in itself to show the desperation and error in Rashi's exegesis. But the bottom line is that Isaiah 48:16 is implying that the Shekinah has a Presence that's somehow distinct from the Lord-God and yet part of the godhead: the Spirit of the Lord-God indwells some tangible, which is to say "profane," manifestation of the deity.

Nehushtan.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

Nehushtan.

I am he; the Alpha and the Omega. My yad is yesod: the foundation of the earth, and the angels of heaven are in my right palm: when I call them they stand up at attention: "All of you angels of heaven assemble yourselves and listen carefully: To which among you has the Lord-God said at any time, `Sit at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool'"? Which of you has declared the person of the Son of Man whom the Lord-God establishes with glory and honor though for a time he made him lower than the angels in heaven?

Isaiah 48:13-14; Hebrews 1:13; Psalms 8:3-5.​

This is the context for the statement in Isaiah 48:14: "The Lord hath loved him." This "him" is the true hymn of the chapter. This "him" is the Son of Man who though he's made lower than the angels of heaven, in fact created them and holds them, and the whole world too, in the palm of his hand. He's the one whom the Lord-God will sit at his right hand therein making his enemies the footstool of his feet.

Professor Nahum Sarna relates the "footstool" to the ark of the covenant. And the wonder-working rod of Moses and Aaron, aka Nehushtan, was placed above the footstool of the ark of the covenant situating Nehushtan as the "him" whom the Lord-God will seat above the footstool of his feet. The ark of the covenant was, for a time, the footstool of Nehushtan's feet.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

Professor Nahum Sarna relates the "footstool" to the ark of the covenant. And the wonder-working rod of Moses and Aaron, aka Nehushtan, was placed above the footstool of the ark of the covenant situating Nehushtan as the "him" whom the Lord-God will seat above the footstool of his feet. The ark of the covenant was, for a time, the footstool of Nehushtan's feet.

I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. Come all of you and hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning for from that time it was clear it was me. At that time it was clear the Lord-God, and his Spirit, sent me.

Isaiah 48:16.​

A voice in the wilderness of invisibility, hidden-ness, is crying out throughout this chapter: How could you have not known it was me, how could you have not seen it was me, the Branch, Nehushtan, in Moses' right hand, from the beginning of your salvation out of Egypt?

O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? Shall the enemy blaspheme thy name forever? Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? Pluck it out of thy bosom. For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth. Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength, thou brakest the heads of Pharaoh's leviathan in pieces and swallowed it with the lips of the rod of thy mouth.

Psalms 74:10-14.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath manifest him.

John 1:18.​

In the beginning of Israel's salvation, Moses feared Israel wouldn't believe he had seen the Branch of God with his own eyes. So God manufactured a serpent-rod נחשתן and told Moses to place it in his bosom where it became leprous. The speaker in Psalms 74 begs God to remove his right hand man from his bosom where his leprosy blinds the world from seeing his true identity. The psalmist begs God to remove the rod of salvation from its leprous repose (in God's bosom ---John 1:18) that it might affect the salvation that is in his power.

Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people --where is he who brought them through the sea with the shepherd rod Nehustan . . . Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them, who sent his glorious arm of power to be at Moses' right hand, who divided the waters before them, to gain for himself everlasting renown . . . this is how you guided your people to make for yourself a glorious name, the Branch, the serpent-rod, the Nazar-ene.

Isaiah 63:11-14.​

John

 

[John D. Brey]

I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. Come all of you and hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning for from that time it was clear it was me. At that time it was clear the Lord-God, and his Spirit, sent me.

Isaiah 48:16.​

A voice in the wilderness of invisibility, hidden-ness, is crying out throughout this chapter: How could you have not know it was me, how could you have not seen it was me, the Branch, Nehushtan, in Moses' right hand, from the beginning of your salvation out of Egypt?

O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? Shall the enemy blaspheme thy name forever? Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? Pluck it out of thy bosom. For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth. Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength, thou brakest the heads of Pharaoh's leviathan in pieces and swallowed it with the lips of the rod of thy mouth.

Psalms 74:10-14.​

In the beginning of Israel's salvation, Moses feared Israel wouldn't believe he had seen the face of God with his own eyes. So God manufactured a serpent-rod נחשתן and told Moses to place it in his bosom where it became leprous. The speaker in Psalms 74 begs God to remove his right hand man from his bosom where his leprosy blinds the world from seeing his true identity. The psalmist begs God to remove the rod of salvation from its leprous repose (in God's bosom) that it might affect the salvation that is in his power.

Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people --where is he who brought them through the sea with the shepherd rod Nehustan . . . Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them, who sent his glorious arm of power to be at Moses' right hand, who divided the waters before them, to gain for himself everlasting renown . . . this is how you guided your people to make for yourself a glorious name, the Branch, the serpent-rod, the Nazar-ene.

Isaiah 63:11-14.​

Isaiah chapter 48 continues the dialogue found in Psalms 74 and Isaiah 63:

They thirsted not when he led them through the deserts: He caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them: He claved the rock also, and the waters gushed out.

Isaiah 48:21.​

It wasn't Moses' power that claved the rock that it provide salvation. It was Nehushtan, the portable theophany Moses had with him from the beginning of the salvation. It, not Moses, divided the sea. It, not Moses, turned the bitter water sweet. It, not Moses, swallowed Pharaoh's serpents. It, not Moses, caused manna to fall from the heavens. From the beginning of the salvation Nehushtan was at Moses' right hand; the wonder-working nazar נצר working salvation to make for himself a name, the name, השם, Nehushtan the Nazarene. But Israel saw only Moses, gloried only in Moses. Holy Moses was Israel ever deceived! That's the hymn, or psalm, of Isaiah 48.

John

 

[dybmh]

There's no transition to justify Rashi's imposition (with Johnathan) that the speaker somehow suddenly shifted from the deity

Prophecy ebbs and flows. The indicators of the shift in speakers is there if one is careful with the details. The prophet seems to be using the word/concept "אני" to raise their awareness to prophecy.

It begins on verse 9 where the prophet shifts awareness to "שמי" "my name", an approachable construct for God, in the first person, dipping their pinky to into "אני". Then in verses 10 and 11, an interesting thing happens in the Hebrew. It's in the way it sounds. The last word of verse 10 is "עני". Vocalized this is very similar to "אני". The prophet could be drawing out that word, meditating on it as it's spoken... then the next verse begins. "למעני למעני". Here "עני" in "למעני" sounds identical to "אני". One can imagine the prophet calling out, slowly, meditating "למעני למעני". Verse 12 peaks briefly "אני הוא אני ראשון אני אחרון". Again each of these "אני" I would expect to be drawn out meditatively. The prophecy starts departing in the next verse. The "my hand" imagery is approachable similar to focusing on God's name in the first person. The prophet is trying to maintain attachment. "קרא אני עליהם" signals the ending of prophecy. Verse 14 says, "Come and gather and listen", this is the prophet trying to restart the transmission.

Verse 15 leading up to verse 16 begins "אני, אני". Again, I imagine the prophet is drawing out each one trying to pick up where they left off. Prophecy is fading. This is the indicator that the speaker is changing back from prophecy to prophet. The prophet is struggling to maintain the connection. This is why the next verse begins "Come near to me and hear this". The source of prophecy has become quiet and hard to hear. "שם אני" is where is where the prophecy fades out. Then the prophet begins building up again by using God's names at the end of the verse and the next one. Then the prophecy picks up again but with less intensity. The prophet does not acheive "אני" consciousness, but is able to speak using God's voice mildly, "מצותי" and "לפני".

Verses 20, 21, 22 are all spoken by the prophet, not coming from prophecy. The transmission has ended with a little blip at the end about the wicked.

 

[dybmh]

the Son of Man who though he's made lower than the angels of heaven, in fact created them and holds them, and the whole world too, in the palm of his hand

Well. "son-of-man" is not a creator. If one focuses on just the words son-of-man, we get...

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

son-of-man is a liar and is most certainly not God.
this is also a good one to compare with Psalm 8, because the same equivilance is being made between "man" and "son-of-man". So really son-of-man means human.
​

Isaiah 51:12

I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made grass;

Here son-of-man dies like grass. Again, the verse equates "man" with "son-of-man".
​

Job 25:6

How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

son-of-man is a worm, again like psalm 8, "man" = "son-of-man"
​

Last but not least, Psalms 146:3

Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

son-of-man is not trustworthy, in him there is no help. That one verse pretty much crushes Christian salvation theology.
​

Now. I admit that this is a shallow retort. But the notion that "son-of-man" in Psalm 8 is "THE son of man" from myth and legend is equally shallow.

On a deeper level... did you know that there is more than 1 son-of-man? Not just talking about Daniel and Ezekiel who were both called "son-of-man". But literally, there are at least 2 different types a lower son-of-man and a hgher son-of-man.

Psalms 49:1-2

To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah. Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world. Both low and high, rich and poor, together.

שִׁמְעוּ־זֹ֥את כָּל־הָֽעַמִּ֑ים הַֽ֜אֲזִ֗ינוּ כָּל־י֥שְׁבֵי חָֽלֶד
גַּם־בְּנֵ֣י אָ֖דָם גַּם־בְּנֵי־אִ֑ישׁ יַ֜֗חַד עָשִׁ֥יר וְאֶבְיֽוֹן

If you look at the Rashi, the tzaddik is a B'nai Ish. The others might be great, but could also be lower class sinners. Basically a B'nai Adam is flawed, like Adam after the fall.
​

What does this mean? It means that one could be built up to beleive they are B'nai Ish, but in reality they are just a B'nai Adam ( a worm ), and the speaker, the source, an angel, or a demon, an unholy spirit is not lying. It is a highly cunning and deceptive ploy. It would go something like this:

"Hey there, little one, do you know the story of the son-of-man? The son-of-man is a perfect righteous being." True, that's the B'nai Ish.

"The son-of-man is in psalms and Isaiah and is the subject of prophecy." True, but that's different. B'nai Adam in prophecy is a flawed human being.

"Perfect righteous beings can perform miracles" True but so can egyptian sorcerers.

"Do you want to me to teach you to do it? So you can reveal yourself as son-of-man?" If the method taught is sorcery and pagan then a Jewish person "doing it" reveals their flaws not their righteousness. But because of the double-meaning, the poor little soul becomes beguiled.

Once the deception has taken hold, the little believes that they are son-of-man a perfect tzaddik, then it's pretty easy to get them to sin.

"Here, little one, it's possible to channel Truth, Power, and Glory. The egyptians and cush do it, and they make wonders... here's how..."

And the little one responds "That sounds like sin..."

And the "other" replies "You are son-of-man". This is true, the poor soul is a flawed human being. But because the little one believes that son-of-man means pefectly righteous, they assume the "other spirit" is telling them it's not a sin when they do it. And the spirit speaks truth, and the methods work, so the little one adopts the practice of this "other" spirit. If the "other" always speaks truth then I MUST be son-of-man a perfect tzaddik. But again, they are fooled because of the double meaning. it's positively devious.

And that's how a talented Jewish youth could get fooled by a demon to break the law and use sorcery to channel archetypes and perform wonders. It all begins with the assumptions. And no one lies overtly which would sabotage any wonder-workings. All that breathes falsehood is destroyed including demons. ( Proverbs 19:9 )

So... who is "son-of-man"? Could be a hero / could be a villian. It all depends on what they do.

​

 

[dybmh]

It wasn't Moses' power that claved the rock that it provide salvation.

True.

It was Nehushtan, the portable theophany Moses had with him from the beginning of the salvation. It, not Moses, divided the sea. It, not Moses, turned the bitter water sweet. It, not Moses, swallowed Pharaoh's serpents. It, not Moses, caused manna to fall from the heavens. From the beginning of the salvation Nehushtan was at Moses' right hand; the wonder-working nazar נצר working salvation to make for himself a name, the name, השם, Nehushtan the Nazarene.

Where is nehushtan at the burning bush? Where is nehustan after Moses passed. Joshua also split the sea. Where was nehustan when the walls of Jericho fell? Where was nehustan when Elijah and Elisha performed miracles?

But Israel saw only Moses, gloried only in Moses. Holy Moses was Israel ever deceived! That's the hymn, or psalm, of Isaiah 48.

Of course I disagree. But it's been a terrific ride exploring these topics with you. You have a wonderful unique brain, heart, and soul. I hope we get to do this again soon.

 

[John D. Brey]

Well. "son-of-man" is not a creator. If one focuses on just the words son-of-man, we get...

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

son-of-man is a liar and is most certainly not God.
this is also a good one to compare with Psalm 8, because the same equivilance is being made between "man" and "son-of-man". So really son-of-man means human.
​

Isaiah 51:12

I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made grass;

Here son-of-man dies like grass. Again, the verse equates "man" with "son-of-man".
​

Job 25:6

How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

son-of-man is a worm, again like psalm 8, "man" = "son-of-man"
​

Last but not least, Psalms 146:3

Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

son-of-man is not trustworthy, in him there is no help. That one verse pretty much crushes Christian salvation theology.
​

Now. I admit that this is a shallow retort. But the notion that "son-of-man" in Psalm 8 is "THE son of man" from myth and legend is equally shallow.

On a deeper level... did you know that there is more than 1 son-of-man? Not just talking about Daniel and Ezekiel who were both called "son-of-man". But literally, there are at least 2 different types a lower son-of-man and a hgher son-of-man.

Psalms 49:1-2

To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah. Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world. Both low and high, rich and poor, together.

שִׁמְעוּ־זֹ֥את כָּל־הָֽעַמִּ֑ים הַֽ֜אֲזִ֗ינוּ כָּל־י֥שְׁבֵי חָֽלֶד
גַּם־בְּנֵ֣י אָ֖דָם גַּם־בְּנֵי־אִ֑ישׁ יַ֜֗חַד עָשִׁ֥יר וְאֶבְיֽוֹן

If you look at the Rashi, the tzaddik is a B'nai Ish. The others might be great, but could also be lower class sinners. Basically a B'nai Adam is flawed, like Adam after the fall.
​

What does this mean? It means that one could be built up to beleive they are B'nai Ish, but in reality they are just a B'nai Adam ( a worm ), and the speaker, the source, an angel, or a demon, an unholy spirit is not lying. It is a highly cunning and deceptive ploy. It would go something like this:

"Hey there, little one, do you know the story of the son-of-man? The son-of-man is a perfect righteous being." True, that's the B'nai Ish.

"The son-of-man is in psalms and Isaiah and is the subject of prophecy." True, but that's different. B'nai Adam in prophecy is a flawed human being.

"Perfect righteous beings can perform miracles" True but so can egyptian sorcerers.

"Do you want to me to teach you to do it? So you can reveal yourself as son-of-man?" If the method taught is sorcery and pagan then a Jewish person "doing it" reveals their flaws not their righteousness. But because of the double-meaning, the poor little soul becomes beguiled.

Once the deception has taken hold, the little believes that they are son-of-man a perfect tzaddik, then it's pretty easy to get them to sin.

"Here, little one, it's possible to channel Truth, Power, and Glory. The egyptians and cush do it, and they make wonders... here's how..."

And the little one responds "That sounds like sin..."

And the "other" replies "You are son-of-man". This is true, the poor soul is a flawed human being. But because the little one believes that son-of-man means pefectly righteous, they assume the "other spirit" is telling them it's not a sin when they do it. And the spirit speaks truth, and the methods work, so the little one adopts the practice of this "other" spirit. If the "other" always speaks truth then I MUST be son-of-man a perfect tzaddik. But again, they are fooled because of the double meaning. it's positively devious.

And that's how a talented Jewish youth could get fooled by a demon to break the law and use sorcery to channel archetypes and perform wonders. It all begins with the assumptions. And no one lies overtly which would sabotage any wonder-workings. All that breathes falsehood is destroyed including demons. ( Proverbs 19:9 )

So... who is "son-of-man"? Could be a hero / could be a villian. It all depends on what they do.

​

This is a great segue into a thread on Toledot Yeshu.



John