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Isaiah 43:11

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Halcyon, May 14, 2006.

  1. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  2. lunamoth

    lunamoth Will to love

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    Hi Halcyon,
    The use of Logos is not Gnostic, but Greek. Here's something from wiki on the use of the Logos in John's Gosple:
    Oh, this is then were I have a different understanding. I guess in a way I would refer to myself as a child of God as it captures one aspect of my relationship with the Father. But I do not think I am a parrt of God (a creation of God, yes, but a painting is not part of the artist), although I do beleive I dwell in God and God lives in me. As for the idea of people becoming a Son or Daughter of God, while I am not very familiar with neo-Gnostic belief, what you describe does not sound like the gospel of "Repent, the Kingdom of God is near!" I think the Holy Spirit does dwell with all of us, or as I said above we dwell within the Spirit, but the transformation of unvovering this truth does not require any kind of special 'knowledge' that is personally revealed only to some few. The Secret of Christ is right out there in the open. For goodness sake, what would be the criteria for developing this special enlightenment?

    The doctrine of the Trinity, although not in labelled with that term, was the experience of the earliest Christian community as passed forward in Tradition and protected by the Spirit. It is woven throughout the New Testament which was written well before the 4th century.

    OK then! :)

    The people are the Church. The Church is not an organization, it is not a denomination or even a religion. So again I ask you exactly when the Spirit abandoned the Church? What year? Every time you read the Bible you interpret it. Which exact doctrine marks the departure of the Spirit from the Church, and why would God not be able to keep His promise?

    peace,
    lunamoth
     
  3. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    I am assuming that you realize that many, many Christian theologians consider large parts of Isaiah to be Messianic prophecies right? Isaiah believed there would be a human being coming to save the world as Messiah? The passage below is thought to be about John The Baptist announcing Christ's way....and the second one is supposed to be about Jesus as well. If you want to start a thread about Messianic prophecies and how they were fulfilled in Jesus, we can. :)

    Isaiah 40:3
    A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."

    Isaiah 49:6
    he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."


    I wanted to include other scripture that correlate Jesus as God that are not from John.

    "...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
    --MATTHEW 1:23

    "For in Christ all the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form."
    -- Colossians 2:9

    "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."
    Hebrews 1:3

    "...CHRIST, who is the IMAGE OF GOD..."
    --II Corinthians 4:4

    "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
    Philippians 2:6,7
     
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  4. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Erm...no? :confused:

    Do you even know what an ecumenical council is?
    The very fact that the people of the time needed Nicea to take place shows us that there were widely varying beliefs. Ecumenical councils are used to was to once and for all determine the orthodox position on a piece of theology, such as the nature of Christ and God, which they didn't even completely accomplish at Nicea.

    Wow, a load of Church fathers, nice unbiased sources there. For a start i'm not debating the divinity of Christ in this thread, this is about the Trinity. The only sources you give mentioning the trinity concept are third century and from orthodox Church Fathers. Their writings, although authoritative now, do not reflect the beliefs of the general population at the time they were written.

    The Church is an organisation, like a bank or a motor company. People can leave the church and still know the spirit of God. And God is with all people, not just Christians.

    Nit-picking. But anyway, they're not people they're not even remotely human-like so person is an idiotic description.

    Pffft. This is all a matter of opinion.
    Yes he was branded a heretic, but from my position it was the church of the time that was heretical. Plus, he very nearly became Pope, so he obviously had a lot of sway and many people would have looked to him for spiritual guidance.

    Many other beings are mentioned in scripture, angels, archangels, Satan, devils. Sophia is mentioned a lot in the OT.
    Three beings are mentioned, and it is also mentioned that they are one, it does not say three in one.

    Lets return to scripture for a moment, Buttercup posted from the First Epistle of John;
    Firstly this is from an epistle, not from a gospel, thus it is opinion/belief of the author already an orthodox chrsitian, it is not of Christ, it is man-made.

    Secondly, if this was not enough, 1 John 5:7-8 did not appear in any copy of 1 John until the sixteenth century. This was well into the existance of the orthodox church as an entity, and well after the formation of the trinity as a doctrine. Coincidence?
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%205:7-8;&version=31;
     
  5. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Yeah i know buttercup, and some of Isaiah does bear a striking resemblance to the passion. But if you talk to any Jew, they'll give you the actual context and person of reference for of which the text is actually speaking.
    You know, i might just do that. :)

    This might be hard to believe BC, but i don't disagree with any of the quotes. I'm not disputing that Christ is of God.
    What i am disputing is that Jesus as a man and as a saviour is beside God as one member of a trinity - evidenced in Isaiah by God himself saying that "beside him there is no saviour". The NT and early Christians differentiated between God the Father and Jesus Christ, its only to be expected that God himself and his Jewish prophet would do the same, is it not?
     
  6. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    May I ask you who you think Jesus was and how you came to the conclusions you have of him? That would help me further answers questions in this thread I think. :)
     
  7. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  8. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim New Member

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  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Actually the Church is not an "organization" except in the narrow definition of human contrivance. The Church is people -- ecclesia. The Church has been organized, but it is not, strictly speaking, an organization, distinct from other organizations. Organizations are human entities. the Church is born of God.

    The nature of the Church is that it is one, as God is one. The Church, then, must consist of all God's children (all humanity, in a sense.) If what the Psalmist says is truth: "Where can I run from your presence?" then, one cannot "leave the Church." One cannot run from the presence of ecclesia, because one is inherently part of ecclesia...wherever one goes and whatever one does. the differences that serve to divide us, theologically, ecclesiastically, philosophically, are illusions -- only "real" to human divisiveness, not to deific unity. The truths that are revealed to the Church are inspired truths, available to all and binding upon all. They are not the contrivances of some select body of people, but are the revelation of God.

    Switching gears...

    One of the problems I see with folks getting their minds around the concept of the Trinity is this: People tend to make "Father" synonymous with "God." It's easy to separate Jesus out from God, because Jesus was fully human. It's not so easy to separate the concept of Father from God. God, in concept, is all-encompassing. Father, in concept, is not. Father is a slightly different concept from God, just as Jesus is a different concept from God. It might be easier if we didn't blur the distinction between "Father" and "God," using them interchangeably, as we tend to do.

    While Father is the creator, Jesus is the savior (and the H.S. is the sustainer). While God is creator, sustainer and redeemer, the Father is not all of those things. While God is creator, sustainer and redeemer, Christ is not all of those things, etc. Incidentally, this "triform" ministry of God to God's people is reflected in the symbology of the "triform" ministry of the ordained clergy: Bishop, priest, deacon.
     
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  10. alexander garcia

    alexander garcia Active Member

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    hi, read Isa. chapters 40 to 50 and then see how many times YHVH says I by my self. Just the fact of the word (I) does not leave room for (US).
     
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Oh, come on. refer to the Shema. If The LORD is One, why would God refer to God's self in plurality? Even Jesus says that he and the Father are One.
     
  12. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Sure, i'll try and make it brief. I should point out though that my beliefs are not set in stone and are liable to change if i discover something contrary to them. :)

    God is all things, simple as that.
    Humans by default are ignorant of the fullness of God, this is caused by flaws in our universe.
    Through effort men (as in humanity) can overcome this ignorance and realise their true nature in the fullness of God. Jesus did this.
    Jesus was born a human son of Mary and Joseph. Through great effort and meditation he conditioned his mind to the point at which the nature of God could be known to him. This event occured at his baptism where he had a vision of the fullness and he became annointed by the light and knowledge of God.
    Then he went into the desert for a period of contemplation which allowed his mind to come to grips with its new state. He left the desert as fully Jesus the Annointed, a Christ.
    At his death the man Jesus died, but what he had become, the Christ, lived on and taught those the man Jesus had known, the apostles, for a further 11 years.
    The Christ is not God, because God is infinite, but it is of God. Jesus though is dead.
     
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  13. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    I never said they were inventions of Nicea, i said that it was not until Nicea that the Trinity became the official Church doctrine on the nature of God.
    And yes i agree with you, they did hold such ecumenical meetings in response to the changing beliefs of the populace. Which just goes to show you that the beliefs on the nature of God at that time were diverse enough to warrent a council specifically designed to sort out, once and for all, what "real" Christians should believe God is.
    And i imagine Origen and those who thought like him, several of whom you quoted from, probably had enough followers and power in Rome to push their belief at that council.

    Not early Church, early Christians.
    They only claimed to be taught by the apostles, they offered no proof.
    I do not belief Jesus is God. God is God.

    They don't, they reflect their own beliefs which they then pushed onto the populace, often by force. They are authoritative now because their methods of teaching were "very persuasive".

    God is not an ignorant little child. He doesn't abandon anyone, ever. Especially just because they don't follow exactly the religious code of ignorant men.

    Fine, i'll use person from now on to avoid confusion. I don't believe God is a person, but meh.


    And you're a monotheist you say?

    He gave Peter the authority to found a Church in his name, what that church became was the result of man. Excommunication is not from the Holy Spirit, that's just silly.

    It is convenient, the Chuch is wrong.
    Sorry, my bad, it wasn't Pope it was Bishop of Rome according to Wiki. Although i'm sure i heard it was Pope form another souce - but i guess that one was wrong.

    Angels are the messangers of God. The Archangels are the first created and most beloved of God (so tradition says). Satan is an angel "employed" by God in the office of the adversary. All these beings are of God. The angels are even referred to as the Sons of God. They all do God's bidding, they are all one with God.

    I know, shame its a sixteenth century addition to an already dodgy epistle.

    Really?
    John was unlikely to have lived to over 100 considering the average lifespan of the time.
    He wasn't called the beloved disciple, people just assume that it is him. Personally i am of the opinion, as are many others, that the beloved disciple was Lazarus.
     
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  14. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    I agree. Makes excommunication seem irrelevent then doesn't it?

    I disagree. I see no evidence of God talking to people though a body of men. God can and does talk to all people, and to all of them he says different things. To listen only to the opinions and revelations of a self-selected few seems disasterous for the spiritual development, to me anyway.

    Well, since Jesus made no distinction between his usage of the terms God and Father, i don't see that i should either.
     
  15. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Since what we know about Jesus comes from Scripture I assume you just made all this up?
     
  16. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    No, its just a different interpretation of the same scripture. Plus some Gnostic scripture.
     
  17. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Okay, then please tell me how this scripture from Matthew 1, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." can be tortured into meaning that Jesus was the biological son of Joseph?
     
  18. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Exactly.

    (You said it much better than I could have):yes:
     
  19. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Because the guy who wrote Matthew was of the belief that Jesus was prophecised in Isaiah, he simply wrote his gospel to reflect his beliefs. Notice that Mark and John don't have an infancy narrative.

    James the Just, the blood brother of Jesus, did not believe Jesus was the literal Son of God and did not believe that his mother virginally gave birth to his older brother. Who you gonna believe, the anonymous author of a gospel that is usually considered 2nd or 3rd generation Christian, or the actual brother of Jesus?
    I know who i'd rather believe.
     
  20. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    I see, what you don't want to believe just call it false. Not that there's anything wrong with that.......

    And you get all this "stuff" from where?
     
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