Is YHVH Equal To Brahma or Brahman?

[Jainarayan]

Namaste Jainarayan-Ji,

Had already said in the conversation, there are a couple of places where Krishna points out to Arjuna that he should fight, as regardless everyone will be destroyed in the Mahapralaya anyway (11:32-33).

That's not a prophecy. That's perception.

 

[Jainarayan]

I believe I have to admit I don't know much and have gone by the way I have seen him depicted. I looked him up on Wikipedia and he is depicted there with a snake and a trident which in Christian circles makes him more like the Devil. However it did say some nice things about him and I wonder if Hinduism hasn't conflated their images a bit.

Conflated whose images? Hinduism is far older than Christianity, so if any borrowing was going on it was Christianity borrowing from Hinduism.

For example, the Jesus birth story takes place 3,000 years after the Krishna birth story. The Jesus birth story suspiciously resembles Krishna's birth more than coincidence can account for.

The snake's name is Vasuki and represents the conquering of fear. No one wears a live cobra around their neck unless they have conquered fear and death. Shiva is also known as Mrityunjaya, the conqueror of death. The trident, trishula, represents various triad concepts: 3 natures of existence; 3 worlds; creation, preservation, dissolution, all of which he has a hand in; 3 modes of time (he is also known as Kāla, time. Not very diabolical, huh?

So, anyone who knows anything about Lord Shiva knows there is nothing but good to say about him. That's why people who don't know anything about something or don't know what they're talking about shouldn't say anything.

 

[arthra]

Yah-Avah was seen by Moses; when Yah-Avah was known as EL he ate food with Abraham.
So is Yah-Avah more like Brahma creator of the universe; yet not ultimate manifestor of reality (Brahman), as he clearly has physical attributes.
What do you think is YHVH Equal To Brahma or Brahman?

Well according to Exodus 33:20 the Lord said to Moses:

And he said, "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

As to Abraham "eating" with "El" see Genesis 18:2

Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

In the Hindu scriptures such as the Bhagavad Gita in Edwin Arnold's translation we have:

Whoso hath known Me, Lord of sage and singer,
Ancient of days; of all the Three Worlds Stay,
Boundless,- but unto every atom Bringer
Of that which quickens it: whoso, I say,

Hath known My form, which passeth mortal knowing;
Seen my effulgence- which no eye hath seen-
Than the sun's burning gold more brightly glowing,
Dispersing darkness,- unto him hath been

~ Bhagavad Gita (Edwin Arnold tr)

You see the reference to "Ancient of days"... now consider a verse in the Book of Daniel:

7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Now note "His wheels as burning fire" and read the following..

"Having cut through the darkness, which consists of ignorance, it approaches that which is not covered by darkness. Then having cut through that which was covered (the personal soul), he saw Brahman, flashing like a wheel on fire, bright like the sun, vigorous, beyond all darkness, that which shines forth in yonder sun, in the moon, in the fire, in the lightning."

(Upanishads vol. 2, Maitrayana-Brahmaya-Upanishad)

They are in substance in my view the same.

 

[sayak83]

Yah-Avah was seen by Moses; when Yah-Avah was known as EL he ate food with Abraham.

So is Yah-Avah more like Brahma creator of the universe; yet not ultimate manifestor of reality (Brahman), as he clearly has physical attributes.

What do you think is YHVH Equal To Brahma or Brahman?

Hindu God(s) and Abrahamic God(s) cannot be equated without doing extreme violation of the scriptures of each tradition (quoting out of context, cherry picking, forced translations etc.)

 

[buddhist]

Yah-Avah was seen by Moses; when Yah-Avah was known as EL he ate food with Abraham.

So is Yah-Avah more like Brahma creator of the universe; yet not ultimate manifestor of reality (Brahman), as he clearly has physical attributes.

What do you think is YHVH Equal To Brahma or Brahman?

In my early Buddhist view, YHVH seems to be more like a petulant minor deity who got himself involved in petty earthly affairs and wars for his own amusement. Brahma is higher ranking deity; he is said to only possess loving-kindness, with no hatred, and is rarely (if ever) directly involved in the human realm.

 

[sayak83]

I believe that is true but it may well be that Hindus can't really defend their religion in a debate so have to isolate themselves from the truth. (The monkey with hands over its eyes and ears)

I believe Hindus ought to be interested in the truth even if it differs from their understanding of things. After all I don't go yuck , pizza is bad because it comes from Italians and I am not Italian.

Do you really wish a debate? I am game. Pick a topic please. This would be so much fun!

 

[sayak83]

I don't think we've confused it, but that there are just a lot of differing schools, not just with Hinduism, but within Saivism (the large sect that worships Siva as Supreme, or calls God Siva) itself. The trident and snake misunderstanding is really common, so welcome to the crowd.

Personally, I don't get insulted by little misunderstandings like that. It's understandable. Its only after we've explained it as well as we can, and the person still holds to their ideas stubbornly does it get more annoying. In the reverse situation, I know very very little about your faith, so if i started spouting off like some expert, you'd have every right to get upset or annoyed with me.

There nothing wrong with a snake. Nice creature. Dangerous yes, but so I a tiger. But nothing evil about it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is wrong with eye of snakes? That is what evolution gave them.
"According to this hypothesis, features such as the transparent, fused eyelids (brille) and loss of external ears evolved to cope with fossorial difficulties, such as scratched corneas and dirt in the ears."
"According to this hypothesis, the fused, transparent eyelids of snakes are thought to have evolved to combat marine conditions (corneal water loss through osmosis), and the external ears were lost through disuse in an aquatic environment."
Wikipedia

 

[sayak83]

Well according to Exodus 33:20 the Lord said to Moses:

And he said, "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

As to Abraham "eating" with "El" see Genesis 18:2

Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

In the Hindu scriptures such as the Bhagavad Gita in Edwin Arnold's translation we have:

Whoso hath known Me, Lord of sage and singer,
Ancient of days; of all the Three Worlds Stay,
Boundless,- but unto every atom Bringer
Of that which quickens it: whoso, I say,

Hath known My form, which passeth mortal knowing;
Seen my effulgence- which no eye hath seen-
Than the sun's burning gold more brightly glowing,
Dispersing darkness,- unto him hath been

~ Bhagavad Gita (Edwin Arnold tr)

You see the reference to "Ancient of days"... now consider a verse in the Book of Daniel:

7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Now note "His wheels as burning fire" and read the following..

"Having cut through the darkness, which consists of ignorance, it approaches that which is not covered by darkness. Then having cut through that which was covered (the personal soul), he saw Brahman, flashing like a wheel on fire, bright like the sun, vigorous, beyond all darkness, that which shines forth in yonder sun, in the moon, in the fire, in the lightning."

(Upanishads vol. 2, Maitrayana-Brahmaya-Upanishad)

They are in substance in my view the same.

Let's begin with the obvious.
Once upon a time, about 6000 years ago according to some, there was a garden. There the God YHWH made a man out of clay and gave him life. Then He made the animals but were not suitable partners of the man. So He made a woman, from the man's rib. Then there was a tree of good and evil from which the couple was not supposed to eat. But there was a talking snake who convinced the woman and the man to eat from the tree. After that they suddenly felt shy and hid. God was angry at their disobedience and cursed them to pain, toil and death. Then being concerned that the couple would also eat from the tree of life and become like one of the heavenly hosts, exiled them to earth. And thus history started.

There exists no conception of God, world or man in Hinduism from which such a tale could even plausibly make an iota of sense. So as a Hindu, you have to reject it entirely - historically, theologically, philosophically and ethically. One can consider it a mythologically interesting tale without any significance of course, but very few practicing Jew, Christian or Muslim would accept such a downgrading of this core narrative.

I cannot imagine a Hindu God killing every first born of an entire nation in retaliation for oppression and death of His chosen people caused by one single king. I cannot even imagine a Hindu God having a chosen people! I cannot imagine a Hindu God killing half the people of His chosen tribe for worshiping the image of a calf. I cannot imagine a Hindu God raising up enemies against his chosen people and ruining their cities and forcing them to exile for failing to follow His commandments, as YHWH claims to do in Isiah.

For anyone claiming identity between YHWH and Isvara, my challenge will be to create a consistent theology where the same supreme deity is represented in all the actions and words done and spoken by God/Isvara in both tradition without leaving stuff out.

 

[wizanda]

That's not a prophecy. That's perception.

My perception is that it can be seen prophetically.

Hindu God(s) and Abrahamic God(s) cannot be equated

Projected from Shiva is the Yantra, that matches the Star of David.

Yah-Avah means 'Lord To Be', Brahma from its roots can mean 'To Be'.

Brahma is higher ranking deity; he is said to only possess loving-kindness

Brahma has been involved in many wars: Hindu mythological wars - Wikipedia

YHVH seems to be more like a petulant minor deity who got himself involved in petty earthly affairs and wars for his own amusement.

What people ascribe, and what deities actually do, are often mixed for the sake of their own justifications.

Also all the deities got more involved in human affairs, if ancient texts globally are anything to go by, until mankind stopped believing.

 

[paarsurrey]

Let's begin with the obvious.
Once upon a time, about 6000 years ago according to some, there was a garden. There the God YHWH made a man out of clay and gave him life. Then He made the animals but were not suitable partners of the man. So He made a woman, from the man's rib. Then there was a tree of good and evil from which the couple was not supposed to eat. But there was a talking snake who convinced the woman and the man to eat from the tree. After that they suddenly felt shy and hid. God was angry at their disobedience and cursed them to pain, toil and death. Then being concerned that the couple would also eat from the tree of life and become like one of the heavenly hosts, exiled them to earth. And thus history started.

There exists no conception of God, world or man in Hinduism from which such a tale could even plausibly make an iota of sense. So as a Hindu, you have to reject it entirely - historically, theologically, philosophically and ethically. One can consider it a mythologically interesting tale without any significance of course, but very few practicing Jew, Christian or Muslim would accept such a downgrading of this core narrative.

I cannot imagine a Hindu God killing every first born of an entire nation in retaliation for oppression and death of His chosen people caused by one single king. I cannot even imagine a Hindu God having a chosen people! I cannot imagine a Hindu God killing half the people of His chosen tribe for worshiping the image of a calf. I cannot imagine a Hindu God raising up enemies against his chosen people and ruining their cities and forcing them to exile for failing to follow His commandments, as YHWH claims to do in Isiah.

For anyone claiming identity between YHWH and Isvara, my challenge will be to create a consistent theology where the same supreme deity is represented in all the actions and words done and spoken by God/Isvara in both tradition without leaving stuff out.

"I cannot imagine a Hindu God killing every first born of an entire nation in retaliation for oppression and death of His chosen people caused by one single king. I cannot even imagine a Hindu God having a chosen people! I cannot imagine a Hindu God killing half the people of His chosen tribe for worshiping the image of a calf. I cannot imagine a Hindu God raising up enemies against his chosen people and ruining their cities and forcing them to exile for failing to follow His commandments, as YHWH claims to do in Isiah."

I being an Ahmadiyya Muslims would say:

I cannot imagine Allah ever commanding/teaching for killing every first born of an entire nation in retaliation for oppression and death of His chosen people caused by one single king. I cannot even imagine a Allah having a race of chosen people! I cannot imagine Allah commanding for killing even a single one person just for worshiping the image of a calf in this world. I cannot imagine Allah ever commanding for attacking a people aggressively and ruining their cities and forcing them to exile for failing to follow His commandments in this world.

Please
Regards

 

[wizanda]

I cannot imagine a Hindu God raising up enemies against his chosen people and ruining their cities and forcing them to exile for failing to follow His commandments, as YHWH claims to do in Isiah.

They were divorced, and exiled for murdering prophets, and finally an Avatar of their Lord as an Atonement sacrifice...

Thus like with Shiva and Kali their blood drinking nature has been proven using time to test them, and a snare to catch them...

If you think the exile was bad, watch what happens next to all those Raktabīja who still think it is OK to sacrifice, and drink the blood of an Avatar (Revelation 16:6).

 

[Vinayaka]

There nothing wrong with a snake. Nice creature. Dangerous yes, but so I a tiger. But nothing evil about it.

Yes of course. But I don't get why you're telling me this. My ishta is Nataraja, after all. Was it because I was pointing out that I was tolerant to someone else's POV?

 

[Kirran]

Yes of course. But I don't get why you're telling me this. My ishta is Nataraja, after all. Was it because I was pointing out that I was tolerant to someone else's POV?

Rabbits are a very friendly kind of animal.

 

[Vinayaka]

Rabbits are a very friendly kind of animal.

Not necessarily. Them jaws are strong.

 

[Vinayaka]

We have large hares here, they're fast too. Two kinds, both change color with the seasons. Mostly they just run from trouble, but if cornered, well that's a whole new story. Maybe like some people ... mostly we don't want to debate, we avoid all the trouble, but then ... if cornered ...

 

[Kirran]

We have large hares here, they're fast too. Two kinds, both change color with the seasons. Mostly they just run from trouble, but if cornered, well that's a whole new story. Maybe like some people ... mostly we don't want to debate, we avoid all the trouble, but then ... if cornered ...

Oh cool! Here there are mountain hares in Scotland and Ireland, which change colour, but the only ones where I grew up were the European hares, which stay brown.

 

[sayak83]

They were divorced, and exiled for murdering prophets, and finally an Avatar of their Lord as an Atonement sacrifice...

Thus like with Shiva and Kali their blood drinking nature has been proven using time to test them, and a snare to catch them...

If you think the exile was bad, watch what happens next to all those Raktabīja who still think it is OK to sacrifice, and drink the blood of an Avatar (Revelation 16:6).

Neither Shiva or Kaali kills humans. In all cases, the stories are about asura-s and rakshasha-s who have invaded earth and heavens from their own plane of existence and were killing and oppressing humans and/or deva-s. Indian mythlogy is rife with activities of non-human beings and races, some good and some bad. The consistent story-line is that God(s) rarely intervene in human affairs unless earth is being invaded by denizens of another realm (i.e. alien invasion!) .

 

[sayak83]

Yes of course. But I don't get why you're telling me this. My ishta is Nataraja, after all. Was it because I was pointing out that I was tolerant to someone else's POV?

Just chatting.

 

[sayak83]

"I cannot imagine a Hindu God killing every first born of an entire nation in retaliation for oppression and death of His chosen people caused by one single king. I cannot even imagine a Hindu God having a chosen people! I cannot imagine a Hindu God killing half the people of His chosen tribe for worshiping the image of a calf. I cannot imagine a Hindu God raising up enemies against his chosen people and ruining their cities and forcing them to exile for failing to follow His commandments, as YHWH claims to do in Isiah."

I being an Ahmadiyya Muslims would say:

I cannot imagine Allah ever commanding/teaching for killing every first born of an entire nation in retaliation for oppression and death of His chosen people caused by one single king. I cannot even imagine a Allah having a race of chosen people! I cannot imagine Allah commanding for killing even a single one person just for worshiping the image of a calf in this world. I cannot imagine Allah ever commanding for attacking a people aggressively and ruining their cities and forcing them to exile for failing to follow His commandments in this world.

Please
Regards

Thus you have to disbelieve half of the Old Testament, correct?
Quran confirms the death due to calf worship by the way.

Quran Chapter 2

53Remember when We gave Moses the Scripture, and the means
to distinguish [right and wrong], so that you might be guided.
54 Moses said to his people, ‘My people, you have wronged yourselves
by worshipping the calf, so repent to your Maker and kill [the guilty
among] you. That is the best you can do in the eyes of your Maker.’

Is it right to kill a person for worshiping idols? God's Laws dictated to Moses and confirmed by Allah seems to say so. Correct?