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Is Trinity in the Bible?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Yasin, Dec 19, 2005.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    No need to apologize... I don't speak for the 1.1 billion other Roman Catholics, just for myself... clear enough?
    And this is your "life's goal"? Best of luck.
    I agree 100%.... I just want to learn why YOU believe it.

    It seems that other than a possible affinity for Hebrew, you have provided no reason
    you believe a word about your "YAH" or his man-servant Yahshua.
    Man, and you'd think with the nice long explaination of "begotten" it would've been mentioned once... maybe I missed it.
    Dang! Jesus walked around all that time just a "normal Joe"?

    Why the change? What made him so special that God chose him to do his saving work?
    Do you throw in the Hebrew because you think I know the language somehow?

    Is it pride, habit, or what?
     
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  2. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    Crystal. ;)

    Why thank you. Your so kind. LOL .......... This after I state that I don't know why you wouldn't believe a word of what I posted about the meaning of the word "begotten"? I then went on to ask you why you wouldn't? You don't make any sense here. I get the feeling you are attempting to push my buttons and start an argument rather than discuss the issue at hand but I have been wrong before. Just because I state that I am making it my lifes goal to become closer to the word of YAH you want to make light of it? I don't get you. Then again I'm not sure I should even care. The truth speaks very clear about stirring away from evil. I'm a little hard headed in this cause I like to give the benefit or the doubt.

    I believe that the Scriptures is the word of YAH our Elohim. Plain and simple. Why do I believe it. Faith. What else would one need? Proof? To me the spirit is my witness. He shares what he sees and hears. I am assured that it is the true inspired word of YAH.

    Why do you believe it?

    I didn't realize that I was being asked to show proof. Why should I? Why would I care if you believe that I believe? LOL Thats just insane. LOLOLOL

    O.K. , O.K. already......... Yah "Begotten" everything.

    Just to make you happy. LOLOLOL

    I know nothing of the son of zeus. ;)

    Joh 3:5 Yahshua answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Elohim.

    Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Choice.

    Shabbat Shalom
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hard headed... yeah, me too... I just enjoy learning about why people believe what they believe.... but some people just sound so darn sure of themselves, as if their faith should be self-evident to others... and do it with an arrogance that smacks of pride rather than any form of Christian charity I know... so, maybe I like to push a few buttons and hopefully instil some humility... maybe get someone to admit their faith is just that: FAITH.... and hopefully learn that those who believe in a different way are not the idiots some people portray them to be.
    God bless you.... faith is all you need... some guy long ago said that with strong faith a person could move mountains.:D
    Faith.... in something different than you, but just simple faith nonetheless.
    If you don't care that anyone believes a word you say, why post?

    To learn and grow in Christ with our fellow sinners is what this life is all about. Sorry you believe it to be insane.
    Okey dokey.
    Omnes cum Petro
     
  4. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    Well, I have to admit that I believe, as most do, that my understanding of the truth is in fact the truth. You nor anyone else doesn't have to agree with my understanding. Thats the beauty of it all here on the old internet. It really doesn't matter what you, I or anyone else thinks, feels or believes. We are only here to fulfil some need, we feel that we need, and that may be as simple as sharing our thoughts and feelings, and yes our beliefs. I do not intend to portray others as idiots. I feel that others, and myself at times, are well versed in accomplishing that on their own.

    You just have to understand that under that word "Faith" is a whole lot to explain and understand.

    Fair enough. Though I expounded upon a little more than just faith but I can accept that.

    I've asked myself that very question here of late. Why do I continue to share my beliefs with those here. Might have something to do with loving others and not want to see them fail the test. Why do you post? Just because you like to push buttons?

    That is a simple way to put something much larger. Though we do look at things very differently. I believe there is much more to it than what you imply.

    I'm not at all sorry to think that worrying over what you think of me is insane. I believe it would be a real problem if others went around worrying about what others thought of them and their beliefs. If you have this problem then I would suggest that you seek out help.

    :rolleyes:

    Latin, nice.

    Shabbat Shalom
     
  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Super... but I disagree that most believe as you do... especially here at RF... it has been my experience that only the most arrogant and close minded people don't think that truth can be found anywhere in the world but between their ears... it's one of the reasons this site is so popular.
    Again, we'll have to disagree... how long does it take for you to lose interest and love in another human being? Once they leave the room? Or can you do it with a simple turn of the back? A "peek-a-boo" gesture, would that work?

    That's just Not for me.... I try to remember that these words I read are from real flesh and blood people just like me.... worthy of respect and tolerance.... even when some may not deserve it **cough cough**:D
    Now you love others....????.... confusing fellow.
    I come here often to seek out help... thank God for the wonderful friends of all beliefs that I've met here who DO care about me as a person.
    Yep... it means "All with Peter".... a reference to my love for our Holy Father (the Pope, in case you don't know).

    See... much better when you actually know what is being written... but I guess that may not matter to ya.
     
  6. Ody

    Ody Well-Known Member

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    It all depends on your definition of the bible
     
  7. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    LOLOLOL........ Very good. Just that I don't believe that the truth can only be found between these two old ears. LOL. I, like yourself, learn as most. Either from others or from our own understanding as well as what the Comforter reveals to us, that is if you are so blessed. Oh and really, what others believe here, or anywhere for that matter, isn't an issue as far as I am concerned. To each there own.

    Yes we will disagree on some of this....... I to know that the words expounded here are from real flesh and blood types but not all are whom they claim to be. I like to give benefit or the doubt so I just leave the door cracked open oh just a little to do the peek-a-boo gesture works for me. LOL Just to set a lie straight....... I don't hate other than the haters of YAH. I really do not see where what I stated about some of the vile that has been posted here would in fact be in anyway associated with "interest" and "love". LOL

    Again, where do you get that I didn't? I don't see anything in my previous post that states that I hated anyone. I will say that I do hate the enemies of YAH. But He will have vengeance on them. I'm not intending to be confusing to you but I can't help your confusion. Maybe its meant to be that way. It might be that your not quite ready to handle the truth. LOL:biglaugh:

    I am glad that you have seemed to fit in so well. Congratulations.

    I actually took the time to look it up, unlike some. :rolleyes:

    You know we finally agree on something. :D It doesn't. But hey, Its fine that you do. To each there own. Good luck with that.

    Praise YAH!
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Ummm... didn't you post this one time before? I'm thinking you have a point you are trying to make about what your personal definition of the bible is... why don't you just share?


    ... and to you my friend.... thanks for the nice chat. God bless you and yours.
     
  9. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    And may YAH help you reap what you sow. Praise YAH!

    Shalom.
     
  10. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    In the Bible we read:
    1. "Know therefore this day, and consider [it] in thine heart, that the LORD he [is] God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else." Deuteronomy 4:39.
    2. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3
    3. "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:" Exodus 34:14
    4. "Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11.
    5. "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6
    6. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:6
    7. "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:18.
    8. "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:22
    If Jesus (pbuh) came believing in the Law (Matt 5:17) and commanded them to obey the law (Mark 12:28-32), then once again where does Trinity fit in?
    Please read Mark 12:28-32, in order to understand my question in full.
    Respectively to all, Yasin:bounce
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Yasin, is the problem that you have with the concept of the trinity that the Christian Faith is a mono-theistic one, and that you believe that "The Trinity" turns it into a poly-theistic one ?
     
  12. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    what is the trinity, Historical development, how did the early church undersand the trinity. This is taken from a theolgy programe I have been studying which I found interesting, I hope it helps those who have a difficult time accepting the doctrine of the trinity. These are the theolgy teachers words Im typing.....

    God in the OT, the Father was understood to be God, when God called moses to led his people out of Egypt in this miraculous way, moses asks what will I tell the people, who will I say sent me, and God said tell them "I Am" sent you. God always potrays Himself as God the Father which is fine, but in the NT Jesus defines Himself as God so we have another problem, so is the Father God of the Old Testment Jesus of the NT. Jesus accepts people worship, Jesus has claimed to be from the beguining. John 1:1 in the beguining was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. So now do we have two Gods ? and then we have Jesus leaving acts chapter2 and the Holy Sprirt coming and He is apparently God so now we have three different people if you will called God, yet we only have one God. so now we have to try and figure out whats going on with our bible. The Father is God and it seems the Son is God and now it seems that the Spirit is God yet we are claiming there is only one God. and thats what leads to this position here.

    St Augustine speaking on this issue in the 4th centuary says to his readers let me ask of my reader, wherever, alike with myself, he is certain, there to go on with me; wherever, alike with myself, he hesitates, there to join with me in inquiring; wherever he recognizes himself to be in error, there to return to me; wherever he recognizes me to be so, there to call me back: so that we may enter together upon the path of charity, and advance towards Him of whom it is said, "Seek His face evermore." And I would make this pious and safe agreement, in the presence of our Lord God, with all who read my writings, as well in all other cases as, above all, in the case of those which inquire into the unity of the Trinity, of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; because in no other subject is error more dangerous, or inquiry more laborious, or the discovery of truth more profitable.

    We are treading on territory that has defined orthodoxy since the very begining of the church, since this issue is really wrestled with and its the first issue that was wrestled with since the history of the church and it is something that if you do don't abide, or do not hold to the principles set forth by the early church and their understanding of the Scriptures you have been deemed as unorthodox, there is no way to saying that someone who denies the doctrine of the trinity yet loves Jesus Christ is a orthodox believer according to the historical definitions of what orthodoxy is. First and foremost, orthodoxy says who is God.

    Orthodoxy says " who do you say that he is, so we enter in to territory which is very difficult, so difficult that you see that many people have a belief in God, would have believed differently about God by denying the trinity.

    The mormons who say they read the same bible say that Jesus is not part of a trinity but Christ is the product of a sexual relationship between the father and the godess, satan is his brother. [ 11.5 million ] bible believers

    Jehovahs witnesess say that Jesus [also known as michael the archangel ] is a creation and the Holy Spirit is a force. [ 13. 3 million ] bible believers

    Muslims say Christ was a great prophet. [ 1.3 billion ] bible believers.

    Oneness pentecostals who use the same bible [ 6 million ] say that, Father Son and Holy Spirit are one person who reveals Himself in three different ways.

    Liberal christians say that Jesus is a Good man

    The uninformed christain those who have never been exposed to orthodox teaching on the trinity therefore unintentionally hold to an unorthodox view.

    Teaching on this subject is a difficult matter because it is something we have to ask you to wrestle with, we have to ask you not to say to us give us the right understanding of the trinity but we can give you what the bible says about it.

    So what is it we believe about God ? lets start with this orthodox position.
    We believe in One God who eternally exists in three persons. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. All of them who are fully God and are fully equal.

    Ok I shall post this first more to follow.
     
  13. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Continued !!!!!!!!!!. The early church had difficulty understanding that

    1 the Bible teaches monotheism, deut 6:4 Isa 44 :6-8 John 17:3 1Cor 8:4-6 1Tim 2:5 [ One God ] And.

    2 the Father is said to be God , Jesus is called God and the Holy Spirit is called God.

    you have a difficulty, which is a real difficulty because you are confessing one God. what does it mean he is one if he is also three. The one in the three the one in the many ..

    lets look at early trinitarianism heresies.

    1 Ebonism
    2 Docetism
    3Adoptionism
    4 Modalism
    5 Ariainism.

    Who where the Ebionites? The belief that denied the diety of Christ but accepted him as the prophet of Duet 16:15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

    Proponent Legalistic jewish sect that could be associated with the judaizers.

    opponent Origen. [ ca 185 ca 254 ]

    Supportive writings Clementine Homilies [ ?]

    All of that to say this, very early on, Jesus comes on the scene, He is seen as thee prophet, He is the prophet that fullfilled the passage in Deut 18 but His claims to diety or what seems to be claims to diety just can't be true because we have one God. And so the very earliest thinkers, Jewishish thinkers, whenever they struggled with this said " well he can't be God. He has to be man, he can't be both. There is only one God. and so that was the first. And it is it inportant to understand the historical context, remember this developes right after the cross, so these might be people who may have actually seen Jesus, so there was no debate at this time that maybe Jesus didn't exist, these are people who know, I didn't see Jesus but my friend michael saw Jesus so everyone knows that He existed. But the question is " Boy he sure looks a lot like mary and Joseph son, that Kid from Nazareth. Not accepting the virgin birth, not accepting clearly a prophet with the miracles he did. They justify him as just another person. the first heresie is that they are not willing to accept his claim to deity but they are not debating who he was and that was obvious, these may have been people who had been in the crowd. They may have been one of the 5000 that he fed, so at stake it is not his humanity but His diety...

    Ok I got to go and get a tooth pulled, but for futher reading if anyone is interested please check out the theology programme at bible.org. I am sure for anyone that takes a look at it will disagree with some of what is said but I did find it interesting. the two Teachers make some fine points.
     
  14. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    Then tell me why the most straightforward verse concerning the Trininty was taken out of the Bible in the RSV, by 32 Scholars and 50 cooperating denominations?
    What do you mean by:
    Muslims say Christ was a great prophet. [ 1.3 billion ] bible believers.

    We Believe in what was revealed to the Noble Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh), originally.

    Respectively, Yasin:bounce
     
  15. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    What Makes Jesus (pbuh) Divine?
     
  16. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Is trinity in the bible ?.............. no it is not , it is not a bible teaching , its as simple as that . many have been misled by this unscriptual teaching ,i am not one of them
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The Bible says it was because he was begotten of God -- not made by God. because "the Word was with God and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh."
     
  18. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    In what sense do you mean "begotten"?
    Main Entry: be·get
    Pronunciation: bi-'get
    Function: transitive verb
    Inflected Form(s): be·got /-'gät/; also be·gat /-'gat/; be·got·ten /-'gä-t&n/; or -got; -get·ting
    Etymology: Middle English begeten, alteration of beyeten, from Old English bigietan -- more at [SIZE=-1]GET[/SIZE]
    1 : to procreate as the father : [SIZE=-1]SIRE[/SIZE]
    2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth
    - be·get·ter noun

    It is the first definition that gives Muslims (and Baha`i's) pause. To "father" in the genetic sense means procreation, semen, sperm, etc.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Actually, that's pretty correct. although no mainstream Christian believes that sperm and genetics were involved, we do believe that God begat Jesus in Mary, through his Spirit. Definition number 2 is also compelling, when looked at next to the Jn 1 passage.
     
  20. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Speak for yourself. I'm certainly part of the Christian mainstream and I believe (as does anyone who agrees with the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, even in its altered western form) that Christ was begotten before all ages and was made Incarnate in the Theotokos by the Holy Spirit. In other words, He assumed flesh through Mary but that is not when He was begotten.

    James
     
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