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Is Trinity in the Bible?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Yasin, Dec 19, 2005.

  1. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    The Concept of Trinity is a fundamental Doctrine which needs to be clear as possible, by that i dont mean to look for the actual term TRINITY in the Bible, but the Concept, God wants you to believe in him, so belief in him, in the way he wants is important, not our way!
    Remember God is not the auther of confusion!

    Tell me when, Jesus (pbuh) was asked about the commandments, Did he ever bring up the concept of trinity?

    Respectively, Yasin:bounce

    Ps Me being a Muslim i have the Quran, and the concept of God is there!

    "Allah! There is no God but Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedes with Him save by His leave? He knows that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He will. His throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous."
    (Holy Quran 2:255)
     
  2. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    And my interpretation of "one" in the context of the scriptures is that Christ and God are literally ONE. Your interpretation may be quite different. I think it's inevitable that we will all continue to run around in circles.

    I don't think it's so much a mental concept as it is a spiritual concept...
     
  3. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    It's not so much a mental concept as it is a spiritual concept. I think we've all run around in circles stating our views on the trinity...and I don't think anyone will ever necessarily FIND a clear verse in the Bible that will ring clear for EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL to either prove or disprove the Trinity.

    For me...it's something that I have a clear understanding of because I've experienced it...I KNOW on a spiritual level that it's truth...
     
  4. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    Nicely put Katzpur!

    One thing many people forget is that, Greek is not the language of Jesus (pbuh) or Moses (pbuh), they both spoke a language, which is generally refered to as semitic, which are Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic. These languages all share the same rules for grammar, which differ greatly with Greek.

    If we look at the context, when Jesus (pbuh) states:

    "I and my father are one." John 10:30

    We being used to the Eglish language, understand it as thus, but!
    See the complete passage:

    "And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

    One in What?

    From my humble understanding, One in Purpose.

    Respectively, Yasin:bounce
     
  5. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    And what is your definition, Yasin, of that Purpose?

    :)
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    So do you believe that the Father is the Son and visa versa? When Jesus was praying in Gethsemane, was He praying to Himself? Did He forsake Himself while hanging on the cross? I'm not trying to be flippant, but since you say you clearly understand this concept, I'm looking to you for an explanation that makes sense to me.

    I think I see what you're getting at. Are you saying that from a strictly objective perspective it may not seem logical, but that it's something you feel in your heart?

    Kathryn
     
  7. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Well...I'm going to do my best here...this is one of those situations where I know what I want to say but I'm not sure if it's going to come out as eloquently as i'd like...

    God HAD to send Jesus Christ in the FLESH to show us how to live...to teach us...to show us God's glory. So, in the Flesh...no...Jesus Christ was a man...a human being just like you and I...BUT...Jesus Christ had the gift of the Holy Spirit...it was GOD within HIM...giving him the ability to work the miracles that he did on earth. So...in life...I believe that Christ was FLESH containing the Spirit of God and thus the Father and the Son were ONE in that aspect. Jesus Christ was a living, breathing person with the Father living within him. He prayed to the Father just as every other God fearing individual but what made Jesus different is that he had the Spirit of God dwelling inside of him...the Holy Spirit...he was conceived by the Holy Spirit...

    Yet, after his resurrection...YES...absolutely...I feel completely and totally that Christ and God are one...GOD'S design was for us to come to him THROUGH Christ. When I pray and praise...I don't have to differentiate between Father, Son and Holy Ghost because I KNOW that I am to pray in the name of Jesus...I know that God is with me and hears me and I KNOW that I have the Holy Spirit residing within me. Separate yet one...spiritually...it's ONE spirit...GOD. It was HIS design for me to come to him through Christ...it was HIS design for me to live my life directed by his Holy Spirit. I'm a Christian...a "little Christ"...I have God...because I have Christ...when I accepted Christ I received the Holy Spirit...d you see where I'm coming from...this IS what the Trinity is to me....it's like a triangle almost...with God right smack in the middle...it's all GOD...but if you look at it from different angles...you've got FATHER, SON and HOLY GHOST.

    And, yes...this is completely something that I feel DEEPLY on a spiritual level, yet I DO see the Trinity in the Bible...so from a mental perspective...I accept it completely just from reading my Bible but it's every bit as large to me in a spiritual light.

    I don't know if this makes any sense to you but this is the best way I can answer your question.
     
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Thanks, dawny. Actually, I guess I'll just never be able to make sense out of this doctrine. I feel like I could really get into a hot debate with you over it, too, but darn it! you're just too nice :162: and I don't feel like trying to challenge your beliefs. I know how deeply held my own beliefs are, and I appreciate people just recognizing that and letting me believe what my heart tells me is true. So again, I appreciate your efforts to get through to me!

    Happy New Year! I'm off to bed.

    Kathryn
     
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  9. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Sincerely looking forward to chatting with you next year. (It's already 2006 here. I'm up WAY past my bedtime.) :)
     
  10. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    Hi dawny0826,

    From your reply to Katzpur, i take that from your understanding of the Trinity, you say:
    in the Flesh...no...Jesus Christ was a man...a human being just like you and I...BUT...Jesus Christ had the gift of the Holy Spirit...it was GOD within HIM...giving him the ability to work the miracles that he did on earth.
    So from this i gather that you accept God (The Father) and God (Holy Ghost) to being contained in Jesus (pbuh), apart from the God (the Father) and God (Holy Ghost), Jesus (pbuh) is just a Man, much like a house, containing the 2 or 1?
    To put it simply, you believe in two manifestations?

    Please give me your reply?

    Respectively, Yasin:bounce
     
  11. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I believe in God the Father...God the Son and God the Holy Spirit...THREE manifestations of God.
     
  12. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Oh yeah, and a very happy New Year to you too. :)
     
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  13. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    My definition comes straight from, the Quran, for that is my criteria!

    Jesus Christ (pbuh) was sent as a noble prophet of God to the Jews, and gave the glad tidings of a Prophet to come after him, Which was the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

    If you love Jesus (pbuh), which i know you do!:162: Then apply his test on the Noble Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

    John 16:

    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew yuo things to come.
    14 He shall glrify me...


    Spirit of truth is not the Holy Ghost

    1 John 4

    1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirts whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.

    The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fulfills all of these prophesies.

    Respectively, Yasin

    Ps Happy New Year;)


     
  14. Yasin

    Yasin Member

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    Oh yes, A BIG VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR AND BLESSINGS OF GOD UNTO YOU;)

    Respectively, Yasin:bounce
     
  15. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Yasin,

    Muhammad isn't my Jesus Christ. And I will never renounce my Saviour. He's my everything. To say I love him is an understatement. I ADORE him. I truly do. I fall deeper in love with my God, through Jesus Christ every single day of my life. I'm truly head over feet for Jesus. (As if you couldn't tell);)

    I believe that you and I love and worship the very same God. I truly do. And it's beautiful to "meet" people like yourself, who obviously love God and believe very much in love and peace. Sometimes, you just get this vibe from people...that they are so sincere in their beliefs...and I'm getting that vibe from so many people on these forums, yourself included. What a blessing! To be able to sit here at 2:45 AM, New Year's Day sharing my beliefs with someone of another faith...in another country...so different in so many ways...but sharing...it moves me, it really does...

    My Bible tells me that the way to my Heavenly Father is through my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. And you renounce that...you don't believe that my Saviour was anything more than a prophet...so, I don't understand how you feel you really CAN come to an understanding of the Trinity Doctrine...even if it's plainly written out before you. You've already rejected it. Clearly, you're searching for someone to agree with your disagreeance. If you don't, on a spiritual level understand God's plan for our salvation...then I think...we'll probably go around and around in the same circles with this...until pigs fly or I don't know...moo cows learn how to roller blade.

    I'm not going to budge and I have a hunch that you aren't going to budge either. It's known to everyone who knows me that I can talk about Christ and my faith for hours and hours...repeating myself without boring of the topic...but there's nothing that you can tell me that's going to change my heart on Christ and I'm pretty confident that there's not much that I can tell you that's going to change your heart on Muhammad.

    But...what you have to understand...from my heart to yours...Muhammad didn't carry a cross on his back...he didn't endure probably the worst beating that any human being has ever endured and most importantly...he didn't take upon himself not only MY pain, worry and sin but the worry, pain and sin of the ENTIRE world. So, this is why I can't accept him as my Saviour...

    I'm sure he was a beautiful person. Who am I to say that he wasn't a prophet of God. But he didn't save me from this world. He didn't save me from myself...Jesus Christ did.

    And I'm sure I'm going to be faced with this debate throughout my ENTIRE life...the whole Trinity debate...people are going to poke holes...and try to disprove and that's okay because with a joyful heart...I still feel like shouting from the rooftops...Jesus Christ is my everything! And I have him because God loved me so much that he sent Him to live and then to die for me, little old me...so that I don't have to bear the weight of this world on my shoulders...I've been baptized in the Holy Spirit...I feel these things on the deepest level possible...deep in my very core...

    And I'm literally in tears now...I can't describe in words the love and peace in my life that results from simply trusting in and loving Christ. I don't have to search for peace. I don't have to search for things of this world to make me happy or content...everything I need is truly right here in my chest...in my heart...I have a relationship with God...I talk to him every day...Jesus Christ is my best friend...he has filled every single void that I had in my life and has changed nothingness into hope and purpose...and I gladly give him everything or at least strive every day to remember that no matter what's thrown at me...His Grace will always be sufficient enough for me. I don't need anything else.

    And my hope for everyone is that they feel this peace too...whatever avenues in faith they're taking...I pray this for everyone on this earth that they feel this too.

    I think it's clear that it doesn't take much for me to go off on an emotional tangent (sigh...flick a tear ).

    I'm not posting these verses to either prove or disprove the Trinity. They're just verses that I felt prompted to share with you...

    "Jesus answered them, "I told you and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My Sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all: and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathe'rs hand. I and My Father are one." John 10:25-30 (NKJV)

    "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus From the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." Romans 8:9-11 (NKJV)

    "And Jesus came and spoke to them saying "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen." Matthew 28:18-20

    This Sheep needs to go to bed...:D
     
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  16. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    Excellent posts, dawny! frubals to you! :D
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes i agree, one in purpose ,they are in unity of thought , that is why Jesus also said that his disciples were one they were in unity of purpose
    When saying, "I and the Father are one," did Jesus mean that they were equal? Some Trinitarians say that he did. But at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: "That they may all be one," and he added, "that they may be one even as we are one." He used the same Greek word (hen) for "one" in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do come to share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.

     
  18. searcher63

    searcher63 Member

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    Well said May! In my oppionion the overall problem with lengthy debate on doctrines such as the Trinity, Hellfire, etc. is that (while a great excersize of ones faith) it detracts people from the real message of the bible, GOD'S Kingdom. Do you agree? I am not against honest hearted people with differences on a biblical theme having a genuine discussion on such topics, please do not misunderstand me. I only feel that TOO LITTLE time is spent on the topic of GOD's MESSIANIC KINGDOM GOVERNMENT....which, in my opinion, is the ONLY TRUE HOPE FOR ALL MANKIND!
     
  19. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    In the same way the early Christians meant it: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22344

    CATHOLIC ANSWERS
    The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

    The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).


    3 in 1 is as best as it gets. I'm not sure what else you are looking for.

    ~Victor
     
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  20. searcher63

    searcher63 Member

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    Thanks, dawny. Actually, I guess I'll just never be able to make sense out of this doctrine. [​IMG]
    Katspur: It is meant to be a confusing, distracting, concept. That is the intent of the originator of the doctrine.
     
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