Is this potential evidence for the resurrection of Christ?

[tas8831]

Not so! There are multiple apocrypha, multiple points of corroboration in the anti-Christian Talmud, and multiple ancient Jewish and Roman scholars who comment on the Christian phenomenon.

And without the above, saying "missing any extra-biblical corroboration" is denying "12 teams of authors gave us the New Testament". It's silly to say "Only 12 parties wrote large documents about this phenomenon, so I cannot accept any of what they wrote as historically significant."

Do we have 12 ancient sources for the life of Julius Caesar, for example? That's a contemporaneous event...

There is physical evidence for Caesar's existence (in the form of coins bearing his profile and name; contemporary mosaics,etc.), and non-Roman accounts of his life. Here is Brittanica's entry on him:
Julius Caesar | Biography, Conquests, & Facts

An extensive history, with dates, names, etc. Nothing remotely similar for Jesus.

Now, these teams of writers - doesn't that sort of undercut the whole 'eye witness' thing?

And that you will accept the ramblings and paraphrasings of ancient peoples as fact sort of undercuts your exceptionally high bar for evidence when it comes to our science claims, does it not? And your much much lower bar for your anti-science claims, like your whole nonsense about enzymes and the appendix?

 

[Audie]

You're serious?

"Apparently at one time there were historical accounts of the strange darkness that came over the land that were kept in the official archives of Tiberius Caesar, though they are likely lost to history."

So... this darkness can only be 'found' in 2 or 3 dubious sources, yet it totally happened.

Did just the area of the crucifiction experience this darkness?

That seems.... impossible.

Why no mentions of it in ANY writings of ANYONE not associated, in some way, with the bible stories? And why no independent verification?

Sorry - this does not come close to passing muster.

Here is one of many reasons I do not believe tales of "miracles" - if the modern-day religionists will embellish to the point of lying to claim miracles, what can we expect of Bronze Age numerologists, whose tall tales had virtually no chance of receiving skeptical examination ?

What is so hilarious about posting this "miracle"
is that if there were any doubt about the shoddy
research and gross credulity of the opster,
there is none now

 

[tas8831]

If he runs into someone else from the same event 40 years later the memories of "what happened" are often quite different.

Indeed - and what typically follows are attempts to reconcile the differences, with each party now having an additional 'version' of events in their heads to mash up with their already-inconsistent memories.

But I'm sure none of that was an issue in ancient times....

 

[Audie]

T

An extensive history, with dates, names, etc. Nothing remotely similar for Jesus.

Now, these teams of writers - doesn't that sort of undercut the whole 'eye witness' thing?

And that you will accept the ramblings and paraphrasings of ancient peoples as fact sort of undercuts your exceptionally high bar for evidence when it comes to our science claims, does it not? And your much much lower bar for your anti-science claims, like your whole nonsense about enzymes and the appendix?

See "miracle of the sun".

 

[Spartan]

You're serious?

"Apparently at one time there were historical accounts of the strange darkness that came over the land that were kept in the official archives of Tiberius Caesar, though they are likely lost to history."

So... this darkness can only be 'found' in 2 or 3 dubious sources, yet it totally happened.

Did just the area of the crucifiction experience this darkness?

That seems.... impossible.

Why no mentions of it in ANY writings of ANYONE not associated, in some way, with the bible stories? And why no independent verification?

Sorry - this does not come close to passing muster.

Here is one of many reasons I do not believe tales of "miracles" - if the modern-day religionists will embellish to the point of lying to claim miracles, what can we expect of Bronze Age numerologists, whose tall tales had virtually no chance of receiving skeptical examination

Like the article stated, it was prophesied in the Old Testament book of Amos, confirmed to have occurred in the Gospels, and then confirmed by extra-biblical sources. You just can't write "does not pass muster" and expect that to fly.

And it wasn't just a local event. According to Tertullian it was a "cosmic" or "world event visible in Rome and Athens.

 

[tas8831]

See "miracle of the sun".

Oh, I know - isn't it amazing -

"The fact that different people experienced different things — or nothing at all — is also strong evidence of a psychological explanation. No one suggests that those who reported seeing the Miracle of the Sun — or any other miracles at Fátima or elsewhere — are lying or hoaxing. Instead they very likely experienced what they claimed to, though that experience took place mostly in their minds."​

- livescience

The religious will see what they need to, even when they didn't.

 

[Spartan]

Pointing fingers doth not make thine light shine brighter.

Back at you.

And like I told you before, don't bother me with your nonsense.

 

[Spartan]

Oh, I know - isn't it amazing -

"The fact that different people experienced different things — or nothing at all — is also strong evidence of a psychological explanation. No one suggests that those who reported seeing the Miracle of the Sun — or any other miracles at Fátima or elsewhere — are lying or hoaxing. Instead they very likely experienced what they claimed to, though that experience took place mostly in their minds."​

- livescience

The religious will see what they need to, even when they didn't.

And the blind ignore the facts.

 

[tas8831]

Like the article stated, it was prophesied in the Old Testament book of Amos, confirmed to have occurred in the Gospels, and then confirmed by extra-biblical sources. You just can't write "does not pass muster" and expect that to fly.

But I did write it, and stand by it.
Other than claims that was seen in Rome, where are the actual accounts from people IN ROME?
Or better yet, in, say Britain? Or Asia Minor?

And it wasn't just a local event. According to Tertullian it was a "cosmic" or "world event visible in Rome and Athens.

Ah, Tertullian! Why didn't you say so!

Writing more than 100 years after the claimed events, relying on hearsay, second and third hand stories, etc. - total proof! Any corroborating writings or evidence from somewhere outside the local area in which the events were claimed to have occurred?

Saw that some guy Phlegon referred to an eclipse at 6 and a single earthquake - can you not see how natural events (if they even occurred - Phlegon was also wiring well after the fact) could have been embellished over time and desire for their to be a greater impact?

Dude 1.'Hey - wasn't it weird how there was an eclipse the day Jesus was crucified?'
Dude 2: 'Eclipse? i didn't see that, but it makes sense - son of God and all that...'

Dude 2 to dude 3, 5 years later: 'Hey - you heard that there was this, um.. eclipse when Jesus was crucified, right?'
Dude 3: 'What is so big about an eclipse?'
Dude 2:'Oh, right.. But he was the son of God, and it was a really long eclipse.'
Dude 3: 'well, that makes sense... extra long eclipse...'
[...]

Dude 27, 10 years later: 'There was a great 3 hour darkness when Jesus died, that covered all the lands!'
Crowd of simpletons: 'WOW!!!'

 

[tas8831]

And the blind ignore the facts.

Yes, religionists ignore the facts.

Same article:

"Not everyone reported the same thing; some present claimed they saw the sun dance around the heavens; others said the sun zoomed toward Earth in a zigzag motion that caused them to fear that it might collide with our planet (or, more likely, burn it up). Some people reported seeing brilliant colors spin out of the sun in a psychedelic, pinwheel pattern, and thousands of others present didn't see anything unusual at all."

 

[tas8831]

And then there are the dead rising....

Now THAT would have been something that one would think would have had some serious documentation.

When these sorts of discussions come up, it is amazing to see the differences in the standards of evidence creationists have for bible lore compared to what they will accept for evolution -

A small group of ancient writers claim to have heard about or read archives that no longer exist that X happened, and X supports Jesus if you view it a certain way, even though there is no corroboration from distant lands, and no physical evidence for any of it, and the creationist is like BIBLE IS 100% TRUE!!!

 

[Audie]

And the blind ignore the facts.

Unintended ironical humour is the funniest kind.

But never mind that.

Nobody here buys your nonsense. Nobody is going to.

So why are you here-to vent hostility or
to trump up some martyr points?

 

[Audie]

And then there are the dead rising....

Now THAT would have been something that one would think would have had some serious documentation.

When these sorts of discussions come up, it is amazing to see the differences in the standards of evidence creationists have for bible lore compared to what they will accept for evolution -

A small group of ancient writers claim to have heard about or read archives that no longer exist that X happened, and X supports Jesus if you view it a certain way, even though there is no corroboration from distant lands, and no physical evidence for any of it, and the creationist is like BIBLE IS 100% TRUE!!!

And when there is proof that something did not happen?
BAD SCIENCE!!
Probably the work of the WWCOSSWPITTTDG!!

 

[lukethethird]

Not in my dreams, across multiple documents written by multiple teams of authors, confirming multiple prophecies, while citing multiple historical details and multiple testimonies.

I have a 2,000-page collection of 66 documents testifying to the Christ. You have "dreams", that is, just-so stories.

Give me some counter-evidence from ancient documents, perhaps? Oh, right, none exist!

You share commonly held beliefs with those of your religion, far be it from me to convince you otherwise, better you learn for yourself.

 

[sojourner]

I'm not discounting that possibility, but most of the NT documents show a scribal helper(s), including Paul's.

The later your camp, the more likely that there are issues, since the countless people/places/things mentioned show either psychic ability (archaeology didn't exist yet) or early writing OR the "illiterates" were a lot more literate that you imagine.

OR (and I think this a highly likely possibility), the gospels began as oral transmission. They certainly read like oral stories. And Q (like an oral-only source) shares material with Thomas, meaning that the shared material would have to be very, very early — likely less than 10 years following the crucifixion. That’s good news for the “early” camp. Oral transmission in that culture was highly efficient (although the oral tradition was more “jist of the story” and not so concerned about specific vocabulary. It was only after the stories were written down that we became concerned about “what was “actually” said). I’m firmly in the Mark just after 70 CE camp, and firmly in the John after 90 camp. The earliest manuscripts we have don’t name an author and are not autographed. Whoever actually wrote the Synoptics down was likely a scribe. IMO, the tradition of “apostolic authorship” isn’t backed by any evidence that’s compelling. And the tradition didn’t begin until long after the Synoptics were written.

 

[sojourner]

You're serious?

"Apparently at one time there were historical accounts of the strange darkness that came over the land that were kept in the official archives of Tiberius Caesar, though they are likely lost to history."

So... this darkness can only be 'found' in 2 or 3 dubious sources, yet it totally happened.

Did just the area of the crucifiction experience this darkness?

That seems.... impossible.

Why no mentions of it in ANY writings of ANYONE not associated, in some way, with the bible stories? And why no independent verification?

Sorry - this does not come close to passing muster.

Here is one of many reasons I do not believe tales of "miracles" - if the modern-day religionists will embellish to the point of lying to claim miracles, what can we expect of Bronze Age numerologists, whose tall tales had virtually no chance of receiving skeptical examination ?

Problem with this argument (on both sides) is that this was an oral transmission society that was largely illiterate. The only permanent written material were official government documents. Weather was never written down.

 

[sojourner]

Just missing any extra-biblical corroboration... Weird...

Why would that be “weird?” This was an illiterate, oral society. Why would the execution of a petty criminal from a petty fiefdom of Rome be permanently recorded? Jesus was not important enough at the time to have been recorded. That he is recorded at all is a minor miracle.

 

[sojourner]

And then there are the dead rising....

Now THAT would have been something that one would think would have had some serious documentation.

When these sorts of discussions come up, it is amazing to see the differences in the standards of evidence creationists have for bible lore compared to what they will accept for evolution -

A small group of ancient writers claim to have heard about or read archives that no longer exist that X happened, and X supports Jesus if you view it a certain way, even though there is no corroboration from distant lands, and no physical evidence for any of it, and the creationist is like BIBLE IS 100% TRUE!!!

It appears as though you expect there to be CNN, NY Times, radio reports, and written histories of all that the minutiae that happened in the Roman Empire. But that’s not How It Works. This was an oral transmission society. The only stuff that was written down was official government edicts and such. there was no news reporting. There were no newspapers. Their sense of “history” was much, much different from ours. We expect lists of facts. They told stories.

In fact, the German word for “history” is Kulturgeschichte, which literally means “cultural stories.” Stuff like “Washington was so honest that he chopped down a cherry tree and then confessed.” That was history to ancient Israel. For us to hold them to an unreasonable standard and then cry “foul” when they fail to live up to that ridiculous standard is folly.

 

[night912]

Flush. Don't bother me with your follies.

So the fool can multitask, replying to my post while using the toilet. Don't forget to wipe your rear end before you run away.

 

[sojourner]

2) Why wasn't the body produced to explain away the Christian heresy?

Why do you think there would be a body? They didn’t embalm people. Jesus’ Body would have likely either been put in a common grave, or thrown to the dogs.