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Featured Is this potential evidence for the resurrection of Christ?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jos, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    No it hasn't. Jude was written between 100-125 CE.

    Mark is definitely post-70 and does allude to the destruction of Jerusalem.

    There aren't.

    "Most conservative" =/= "most reliable." Of course conservative scholars buy into the apostolic authorship BS. It's bias.
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    In a vision -- not in full cognizance.
     
  3. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Since 1 Thess. is the earliest document in the NT, and it was written at least 15 years following the alleged event, it does not constitute "a handful."

    Paul saw Jesus in a vision -- not in full cognizance.
     
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really. You cannot prove it is a myth the same as you cannot prove that the resurrection did not happen as you were not there. You just do not know. So why make up theories you cannot prove? The Gospel of JOHN was not written too late. It was written in the lifetime of John. No my friend, what have you proven? Yep nothing. :)
     
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  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    There were no eyewitnesses to prove the Resurrection. Therefore, since the allegation hasn't been proven, I need no proof to refute it. That's how evidence works. I'm not the one making things up. the bible writers are the ones making things up with no evidence.

    The Johanine Gospel was written ca. 100 CE. That's certainly too late for the apostle John to have written it. John would have been born around the same time Jesus was, (ostensibly late in BCE). Nobody lives that long. Especially not in 1st century Palestine.
     
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  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. Sure there were eyewitnesses. One only has to read the gospels and the book of Acts. This is apostolic teaching that you claim to believe but it seems you do not. You cannot prove that any of these eyewitnesses made things up so why pretend that you can? Your only making an argument in silence that you cannot prove. I agree I cannot prove the resurrection happened yet by faith I believe what is written in the scriptures from the eyewitness accounts of others that saw JESUS after the resurrection. You cannot prove it did not happen this is simply your faith that I do not believe. I am at peace in what I believe what about you? :)
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You cannot prove that there were any eyewitnesses.
    A story that says there were eyewitnesses is not proof that there were eyewitnesses.
    The resurrection is a faith based belief, facts not in evidence.
     
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  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sure we can. We have had this same discussion in another thread somewhere else already. There is historical evidence from the ROMANS and JEWS sources outside of the biblical records that verify the biblical records in relation to aspects of life of Christ (not talking about the resurrection here). Virtualy all scholars and historians agree with these fact and that Jesus existed. I already agreed that the resurrection is faith based as is the belief of those who do not believe in the ressurrection as they cannot prove it did not happen. Perhaps you did not read everything you were quoting from did you?
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    'K. Who were they? In fact, the bible patently alludes to the fact that no one saw Jesus come out of the tomb.

    No. This is not an argument from silence. You need to review your argumentative fallacies.
     
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    So "faith-based" is not evidence-based. Meaning that it can't be proven to have happened. If it can't be proven, then there's no evidence to suggest that it did, in fact, happen. And we can't assume that it happened. Until the accounts are proven, they remain mythic in nature.

    BTW, how does someone go about providing evidence that a particular eventuality never happened? You're creating a biased and loaded condition for evidence. If the event didn't happen, there would be no evidence for it. In this case, it's the abject lack of evidence for its occurrence that is compelling in the argument that it didn't happen.
     
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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I am not saying that Jesus did not exist. There is evidence that Jesus existed and that is why scholars and historians agree that Jesus existed.
    Those who do not believe in the resurrection do not have to have faith because there is nothing to have faith in.

    Those who do not believe in the resurrection are not obliged to prove it did not happen because they are not the ones making the claim. The ones making the claim are the ones responsible to prove their claim.

    It cannot be proven that the resurrection did not happen, it can only be proven if it did happen.
    There is no proof that it did happen, only stories that say it happened. Stories are not proof.
     
  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Pershaps you need to read your bible more.

    The main reason the disciples believed in the resurrection of Jesus is that they saw Him alive after He was dead. Jesus presented Himself alive on a number of different occasions to His followers.

    Thus we see them testifying, time and time again, to the fact they were eyewitnesses of His resurrection. This firsthand evidence of the disciples is a powerful argument for the resurrection of Christ. The disciples knew that He had risen because they saw Him with their own eyes.

    Jesus' Testimony About His Resurrection

    First, we have Jesus' own personal testimony is that He was raised from the dead.

    I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 1:18).

    Luke records Jesus' saying.

    Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have (Luke 24:39).

    The Various Appearances Of Jesus

    Many different people saw Jesus after the resurrection. The appearances were as follows.

    Mary Magdalene


    The first appearance of Jesus was to Mary Magdalene.

    Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, 'Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?' She, supposing him to be the gardener, said to him, 'Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.' Jesus said to her, 'Mary!' She turned and said to him, 'Rabboni!' (which is to say, Teacher) (John 20:14-16).

    This appearance was totally unexpected.

    Mary The Mother Of James, Salome, And Joanna

    Jesus also appeared to these three women. This happened after the appearance to Mary Magdalene. After an angel told them Jesus had risen, they were on their way to tell Jesus' disciples when they met the risen Christ

    And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him (Matthew 28:9).

    Again, we have another unexpected appearance. As was true with Mary Magdalene, these women touched the body of Jesus.

    Peter

    Peter is the first person mentioned in Paul's list of witnesses, and is the first of the apostles to see the risen Christ. This was a private appearance to reassure him, since he had just denied his Lord. The gospels are completely silent as to the details of this meeting. Luke merely wrote:

    The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon! (Luke 24:34).

    Two Disciples On The Emmaus Road

    Later on Easter Sunday, Jesus appeared to two disciples on the road to Emmaus.

    And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. And they were conversing with each other about all these things which had taken place. And it came about that while they were conversing and discussing, Jesus himself approached, and began traveling with them. But their eyes were prevented from recognizing him (Luke 24:13-16).

    As was true with the women, these two disciples were not expecting Jesus to rise. In fact, they were leaving Jerusalem because they had lost hope in Him.

    The Disciples - Thomas Absent


    This is the last of the five appearances of Jesus on Easter Sunday. It took place in the evening, probably in the upper room in which Jesus had instituted the Lord's Supper. It is recorded in both Luke's and John's gospel, giving us two independent accounts as to what happened. John wrote:

    When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." And when he had said this, he showed them both his hands and his side. The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord. . . But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came (John 20:19,20,24).

    All Of The Disciples

    Eight days later He appeared again - this time with Thomas present.

    And after eight days his disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, 'Peace to you!' Then he said to Thomas, 'Reach your finger here, and look at my hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into my side. Do not be unbelieving but believing.' And Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and My God!' (John 20:26-28).

    Seven Disciples At The Sea Of Galilee

    Another appearance was to seven disciples on the Sea of Galilee.

    After these things Jesus manifested himself again to the disciples at the Sea of Tiberias, and he manifested himself in this way. There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples (John 21:1, 2).

    A Mountain In Galilee

    There is also the account of Jesus appearing before His eleven disciples in Galilee.

    But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. And when they saw him, they worshiped him; but some were doubtful (Matthew 28:16,17).

    Over Five Hundred People

    On another occasion, Jesus appeared to over five hundred people at one time.

    After that he was seen by over five hundred people at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep (1 Corinthians 15:6).

    James

    Scripture also says that Jesus appeared to His half-brother James.
    Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles (1 Corinthians 15:7).
    The details of this appearance are not recorded.

    Saul

    After Jesus' ascension He appeared again - this time to Saul of Tarsus.

    And as he [Saul] traveled he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are your persecuting me?' And he said, 'Who are you, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting' (Acts 9:3-5).

    These are the appearances of Jesus that the New Testament records. They caused His disciples to believe that He had risen from the dead. Luke says that Jesus showed Himself alive with many convincing proofs.

    To these he also presented himself alive after his suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3)

    Summary

    The Bible says that Jesus made a number of appearances after His death. They were to a number of different people over a forty-day period. The Bible specifically says that on Easter Sunday Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, the women that came to Jesus tomb (Mary the Mother of James, Salome, and Joanna), Peter, and two disciples on the Emmaus road. He also appeared to the remainder of the Twelve Disciples with Thomas absent. Later he appeared to them with Thomas present. There was also an appearance to seven disciples on the Sea of Galilee. On another occasion he appeared to over five hundred people at the same time. There is also an appearance to James. Finally Jesus appeared to Saul of Tarsus - the man who became the Apostle Paul. These appearances convinced His disciples, beyond any doubt, that He had risen from the dead. (Source: Blue letter bible)

    No you have no proof for your position and your only making an argument from silence in order not to believe Apostolic teachings. I agree my position is based on faith but your position not believing the apostolic teachings is also based on faith in the opposite direction and shows you do not believe Apostolic teachings, nothing more and nothing less :)
     
    #312 3rdAngel, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Wheather you believe in the resurrection or do not believe in a ressurection either viewpoint is a belief that cannot be proven or not proven as no one knows. If you have no evidence for a belief then you believe it by faith because you have no evidence for your belief. An argument in silence is not evidence that something is true or not true.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    With all due respect, the Bible "says" a lot of things, but not everything in the Bible literally happened. Many of the stories in the Bible are allegorical, a method that was used by the writers in order to convey spiritual truths.
     
    #314 Trailblazer, Jan 21, 2020
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  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    You may need to fix up your formatting. I did not say the above. Some things in the bible are symbolic some are true and literally happened. Your argument here seems to be that everything in the bible is symbolic. This is simply not biblical and neither can you prove these claims. The existence of JESUS and the destruction of Jerusalem which virtually all scholars and historians agree to is a simple example as to why your claims are not true.
     
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Perhaps the bible isn't the evidence that's needed.

    No. Texts that were written at least 40 years after the fact say that people said they believed because they saw him. That's not proof that they saw him; it's only proof of a story in which there are certain characters who say that. Just because Harry Potter saw Dumbledore in the first book doesn't mean that an actual harry Potter saw an actual Dumbledore.

    No. We have stories in which characters testify.

    Also just stories in mythic texts written long after the fact.

    The bible isn't evidence of historic fact.

    This is not an argument from silence.
     
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  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Whether you believe in God or do not believe in God either viewpoint is a belief that cannot be proven or not proven as no one can prove God exists. There is good evidence that indicates that God exists but there is no proof that God exists. There is no good evidence that indicates that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, only stories men wrote that cannot be verified in any way. Nobody really knows why those stories were written because we cannot talk to those who wrote them now.
    Some beliefs are evidence-based but we still have to have "some faith" because they cannot be proven.
    If they could be proven, they would be considered facts that would be recognized by everyone.
     
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your the one that said you believe the Apostolic teachings which are the scriptures not me. Now your trying to argue away the Apostolic teachings. This only shows you do not believe them IMO.

    Nonsense! The gospels were written in the lifetime of the Apostles and are Apostolic teachings on the life and words of JESUS. Seems you do not believe them. Look at you, a teacher in a church, comparing the Apostolic teachings to Harry Potter. Sounds like you do not know what you believe IMO. You say you believe in the Apostolic teachings and yet here you are not believing them.

    I agree and have said this earlier that I believe in the resurrection by faith. You on the other hand seem to be saying it did not happen for which you also have no evidence for this claim which means you claims because you cannot prove them are also a belief of faith but in the opposite direction.

    Hope this helps :)
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Thanks, I fixed my formatting.
    I said "not everything in the Bible literally happened." I did not say that nothing in the Bible literally happened.

    I will believe what scholars and historians say literally happened, but I have no reason to believe anything else literally happened. It might have happened or not, I just do not know, but if there is no evidence to prove it happened I am not going to believe it happened since there is no reason to do so.
     
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure if you are understanding what I have posted to you. Your agreeing with me here.
     
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