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Featured Is this logical?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Dec 29, 2019.

  1. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    You decide who the true prophets are based on what you believe to be evidence.

    That is no different from Muslims believing Allah is the one true God because of the evidence they believe in.

    That is no different from Hindu believing Shiva is a true God because of the evidence they believe in.

    They ain't all right. But all of them, including you and yours, believe they are right. Utter Nonsense.
     
  2. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Gee. You said you were not going to your forum anymore.
     
  3. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    I already told you more than once that it is your responsibility to provide at least one fulfilled prophecy. You posted Micah. You failed. You will never accept that you have nothing. The best you can do is try to shift the burden to others and conclude with a self embarrassed smiley.
     
  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it worth knowing if the KJV is accurate? That would help show what Bill Sears is claiming is true. You know we do have Micah in Hebrew with a side by side translation. And we do have newer translations, including the New King James, that has "they" and "Egypt" in the translation. So why go by KJV? Unless it is the only one that makes it appear to be a prophecy about the journey of Baha'u'llah from Persia to Israel?
     
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  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    From a site about failed prophecies in Matthew...
    In George H Smith’s Atheism: the Case Against God, he laments:

    For another astounding prophecy, turn to Matthew 2.15, which refers to Jesus’ alleged flight into Egypt to escape Herod’s mass slaughter of children…

    [Joseph and Jesus] remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt have I called my son.”

    Observe the context of this “prophecy,” which was taken from Hosea 11:1:

    When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

    This passage and those that follow clearly indicate that the “son” refers to Israel during its exodus from Egypt (such as in Exodus 4:22, where Israel is again referred to as God’s son). This “prophecy” refers to a past event. The author of Matthew, who would have us believe that Hosea 11:1 predicts a future event, is again very brazen in his distortion.

    These are only two examples out of many similar cases. Time and again, Old Testament passages are distorted, misinterpreted and quoted out of context in the attempt to manufacture prophecies for Jesus.​
    If it's true that Matthew "manufactured" prophecies, then his gospel is BS. And, it shows that even writings claimed to be "God's Word" aren't necessarily God's Word, but man's words. For the Baha'is we don't even have Baha'u'llah telling us about the "prophecy" in Micah. We have Bill Sears, a higher up leader in the Baha'i Faith, but what he says is not the infallible Word of God. You and I have both shown that there are problems with Bill Sears claim. Do Baha'is care? Will the Baha'is investigate the verses from Micah and verify if what Bill Sears is claiming is true? I don't think they will...
    Yes, it is "futile". JW's, Fundy Christians, Baha'is or whoever thinks that their religion is right, it is useless to argue or debate with them.


    So Trailblazer you win by forfeit. Good job.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I like how you think and I was thinking along the same lines.
    But how can we determine that?
    This is just one prophecy, most prophecies are not so discrepant between translations. The logical thing to do if you want to know why the translations are very different would be to do some research. I wish I had the time but I am bucking a headwind on forums so I can barely breathe. :eek:
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What is futile is to try to use prophecies to determine which religion is right since in many cases prophecies can be made to say and mean whatever people want them to say.

    The prophecies fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are just icing on the cake, they are not the cake. Moreover, Baha'u'llah never suggested that we use prophecies as a way to determine the truth of His claim. Rather, what He wrote was very clear...

    “Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth.
    Gleanings, p. 105
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    They are all right, to varying degrees.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I told them to have fun because I was not going to respond to any more of exactly the same garbage, misrepresentations of my religion, idiotic ideas about what God would/should do. Then they snared me into coming back by posting something different, but last night I decided I am no longer responding to that one atheist who makes a god in his own image.

    There is one really nice Christian I have known for years who came back after being gone for a while, so I am going to post to him. He was one of my first posters and he has been there for over five years, since I started my forum, and we are friends in spite of disagreeing about beliefs. He is a fundamentalist Christian.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I have plenty more where that one came from... I am anything but embarrassed. :D
     
  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    When I was with the Christians, I took everything they told me as true. After all, why would they lie? But, I also took everything I was reading in the NT as true, then I read the Jewish part of the Bible to see if the "fulfilled" prophecies in Matthew checked out. They didn't. Verses were taken grossly out of context. I don't even like what Christians have done with Isaiah 7:14. One verse and in that verse they use a problematic translation of a Hebrew word to make it say a "virgin" shall give birth to a son. Then they disregard the rest of the verses that have nothing to do with Jesus. But that is Matthew and Luke doing that?

    Yes, anyone can make prophecies out of nothing. But, Baha'u'llah shouldn't. Anything he says should be dead on. Baha'is, even a Hand of the Cause, is different. They could be wrong. But then, what do you do with Bills Sears book? Dead on? Or, not so much... and just the opinion of the author? It better be dead on, especially since it was a huge factor in a lot of people becoming Baha'i.
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha’u’llah did not make anything out of prophecies, as He never claimed they were proof of who He was.

    There is no way to be dead on with prophecies because there can always be more than one way to interpret them. Moreover, people will always find a way to twist the meanings even if there is one obvious meaning. For example, regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men.

    Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 can apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

    Of course we know that Baha'u'llah saw His seed, Abdu'l-Baha, and that His days were prolonged, because He lived into old age. Jesus did not live into old age, and rising from the dead does not count. :rolleyes:

    As for the prison Baha'u'llah was tossed in, we all know about that. What prison was Jesus in? Baha'u'llah made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, but Jesus did not.

    Thus there is no way this whole chapter can be about Jesus. Jews think it is about Israel but that is a real stretch. It just does not fit. It is about the Messiah and we can only know that in retrospect, IF we know what happened to the Messiah, as we know what happened to Baha'u'llah.

    One Christian I have been posting to for over five years on other forums argued that Jesus saw His seed because Christians are children of God... That is what I mean by twisting meanings to make them fit.

    Isaiah 53 King James Version (KJV)

    3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

    10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.​
     
  13. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    History has shown they won't.


    Your post was very informative.
     
  14. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Since you believe it is futile, why did you point to prophecies as being evidence for Baha'u'llah?

    Since you believe it is futile, why did you try to defend you Micah verse repeatedly?

    Now you seem to be trying to defend prophecies again. Please, make up your mind.




    Then why did you bother posting the Micah verse? Why did you refer to more prophecies by Stearns?


    I exist - therefore I am a Messenger of God!

    Uh huh.


    What revelation? That he thinks he is a Messenger of God?
     
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  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, so what have we learned? That we can't trust prophecies that use the words from translations? Baha'is used KJV and Christians used the Septuagint. And everybody takes it out of context and puts their own spin on it. Yes, Trailblazer is right. Prophecies don't prove a thing. So now what? I gotta study the life and teachings of all these guys that claimed to be the Christ? Wait... Christ is a translation? So who were they claiming to be? Jesus? No wait, Jesus is a translation or a transliteration or one of those things that ain't the original word. Never mind.
     
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  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Because He has fulfilled them.
    I did not defend it repeatedly. The second time I just pointed out how Baha’u’llah fulfilled it.
    I said they are icing on the cake, meaning they are not the BASIS for believing in Baha’u’llah.
    Because you kept pressing me to post a verse... Stupid me, I should not have wasted my time.
    His Revelation means what He DID during His Mission on Earth. It is not “I exist.”
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do not know now what, but with all due respect, if you do not believe in Christ or Baha’u’llah after 50 years of kicking the can around I highly doubt you ever will... Just Imo.

    I do not know what your path is or will be because I do not know your goal, but I will support you in any way I can. :)
     
  18. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    1. You have admitted that the biblical prophecies, as with all things in the Christian Bible are very unreliable.
    2. You have been unable to show any prophecy that he fulfilled.


    You are 0 for 2. Yet you believe.

    In English doing something twice is repeating it. Perhaps in Bahai it means something different.

    You have been unable to show any BASIS for believing in Baha’u’llah. There is no cake. Apparently you want to spread icing on the outhouse floor.

    I asked you to show one fulfilled prophecy from the Bible regarding Baha’u’llah. YOU posted Micah. I, and at least one other person, showed how nonsensical it was to try to relate the Micah verses to Baha’u’llah. Furthermore, YOU, yourself said the Bible is unreliable, for several reasons (authorship, translations, etc). When I again asked for a fulfilled prophecy, you posted a link to Sterns. You didn't waste much time doing that but you expected me to waste my time looking through all the nonsense that he wrote. Silly you.

    Then do tell us about what "He DID during His Mission on Earth".

    Also, why did you capitalize "He"? Are you elevating the messenger Baha’u’llah to the status of a God?
     
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  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I said prophecies are unreliable as proof that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God (return of Christ and the Messiah) because any prophecy can be interpreted in more than one way.

    Let me make myself perfectly clear. I never read one page of the Bible before I became a Baha’i and I never read one page of the Bible for 42 years after I became a Baha’i. I believed in Baha’u’llah based upon His Own Revelation and I did not even know He had fulfilled Bible prophecies until much later.

    The Bible prophecies are NOT why I believe in Baha’u’llah. I consider them evidence but Baha’u’llah never wrote that we should consider them evidence of His station.

    William Sears showed how Baha’u’llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies in the book Thief in the Night.
    Stay tuned to this channel because I will be posting a new thread coming this weekend entitled Was Baha’u’llah a Messenger of God? per request by @ Left Coast and a few other posters also expressed an interest. I doubt any of the evidence will constitute cake for you but that is because we look at the evidence with different eyes.
    Do you really think I am going to post everything Baha’u’llah did on his 40 year mission on a forum? If you want to know, you will have to read some books:

    God Passes By

    The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.​

    All the Messengers of God are referred to as He and Him, since they are Manifestations of God. That does not mean they are God, but that they manifested God in the flesh.
     
  20. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Why do you do this to yourself? But, for me... I can't wait. I hope Ecco will be there too.
     
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