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Is this ANGEL Yahweh himself?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Mar 7, 2021.

  1. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Some Jews claim that the ANGEL of the Lord is not God Himself, but a created angel.

    But the Bible gives clear hints that this angel is not an usual angel.
    There is a difference between an angel and the Angel of the Lord, The Angel of the Lord is the only angel appearing continually throughout the old testament referring to himself as the Lord and God in the first person, while the other angels mentioned in the scripture reference to the Lord God as a hallowed third person always humbling themselves and not accepting any type of glory.
    Angel of the Lord - Wikipedia


    This Angel not only speaks directly in the first person as God, he also has God's appearance.
    And he said: I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
    Exodus 3:6

    What do the Jews and Christians from this forum say about this?
     
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  2. ToGodorNottoGod

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    Different folks interpret the Angel of Yahweh in various ways. There was controversy to it back in Jesus' day with the Jews and their notion of the "Two Powers in Heaven," as the biblical scholar Alan F. Segal has noted in his book. Apparently many kinds of holy beings could be viewed as an angel. Margaret Barker's "The Great Angel" has given many references in the OT and Philo and others in ancient times who note the Angel of Yahweh was Yahweh himself. I suspect the idea is that it was a divine being.
     
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  3. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    St Luke's Gospel (1 11-19) identifies Gabriel and the angel of the Lord as one and the same.
     
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  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    The problem with this is that, when you make the case that the angel of the lord is just an angel it is language, yet when you make the case that angel of the lord is the lord himself its apologetics or polemics.

    If someone is called lord, and you think that is calling himself the God the creator, YHWH, then Satan is God, Moses is God, and maybe even many others. This is why Jewish scripture and its language should be understood from a Jewish linguistics perspective, and not a post hoc ergo propter hoc apologetics.
     
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  5. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Gabriel does not speak as God in the first person. He is not the angel of the Lord who speaks as God in the first person.
     
  6. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Yes you are right. I had misunderstood the OP. From the Wiki link it seems rather ambiguous. But the bible is not a work of great precision.
     
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Meh. It's a stretch. :)
     
  8. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    In his speech in Acts 7, Stephen says that the Jews "received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it." Acts 7:53

    And Paul says that the law was "ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." Gal 3:19

    When Moses was on Mount Sinai, God spoke to him and said:

    "Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
    Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
    But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
    For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off." Ex 20:20-23

    The writer of Hebrews says:

    "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak." Heb 2:5

    The above verses indicate that God had put in subjection to angels the world that existed under the law. However, the world to come is put in subjection to Christ.
     
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Right, the angel of the Lord is Not God himself.
    Please notice who is the Lord at 1 Thessalonians 4:16 but Christ Jesus who has the Archangel's voice. - Jude 1:9

    Pre-human heavenly Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God according to John at Revelation 3:14 B.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find at Luke 1:18-19 it is angel Gabriel who stands in the presence of his God. (stands near before God ) .
    Gabriel is Not Archangel Michael. Gabriel is God's angel at verse 11 and Not Michael. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    That's right. When God wants to speak, he speaks THROUGH an angel.

    Angels are quite intimidating to us. The Torah has incidents where angels appear and humans fall flat on their faces.

    Remember that no one sees the face of God and lives.
     
  12. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    But I haven't mentioned Michael. Why do you bring Michael into it?
     
  13. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Genesis 32:31
    And Jacob gave the place the name Pniel: For I have seen God face to face, and my soul has been saved!
     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    This is an anthropomorphism.
     
  15. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I think Bible is not saying it was the angel who told that. It tells Moses saw the angel and after that he heard God’s voice from the bush.
     
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  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    God doesn't have an appearance. He has no form at all. All descriptions of him having a face or hands or whatever are anthropomorphism. Moses only saw the angel.
     
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  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The title given to the per-human Jesus is “the Logos” or “the Word”. This title carries the meaning of one who speaks in behalf of someone else...a spokesman....an appointed representative.

    The three angels who manifested in human form in Genesis 18 were messengers (which is what an angel is). They told Abraham about the future birth of his son Isaac.
    Only one of these messengers was identified as Yahweh, or one who spoke on his behalf. This I believe was the Logos. The other two went on to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family.

    Perhaps that verse in context will reveal the truth....?
    Exodus 3:2-6....
    Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, he saw that the thornbush was on fire, and yet the thornbush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said: “I will go over to inspect this unusual sight to see why the thornbush does not burn up.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he went over to look, God called to him out of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” 5 Then he said: “Do not come any nearer. Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.”

    6 He went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at the true God.”


    This was again an angel speaking for God....most likely the Logos who always spoke on his God’s behalf.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Gabriel and Michael are two different angels.
    Gabriel announced Jesus birth who is named Michael for us at 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
     
  20. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Well obviously they are two different angels. That's the reason for giving them different names, presumably.
     
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