Is There Truth?

[savagewind]

It seems to me that many RF posters believe there is no ultimate truth; or if there is, we cannot get to know it. IMO, Jesus Christ believed truth was attainable. He famously said: "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
Do you believe the truth exists and is available to those seeking for it? Are people afraid of the truth?

"most important, highest, last, or final:

Your ultimate goal is to play the game as well as you can.
means the best, most, or greatest of its kind:

Some people believe that he is the ultimate painter of this century.

• that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.
  noun: the truth
  "tell me the truth"
  synonyms: what actually happened, the case, so;
  a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

I think your question doesn't make sense.

God is true and God is the highest, most important and final

Is there ultimate truth? Yes, GOD.

Some people say they are "in the truth". When they think that I don't think they mean that they are in God.

 

[Losin]

Truth exist in a sense that something is either empirically right(sky is blue) or it is logicaly right(square has four sides). Ultimate truth in sense that we can comprehend total meaning of things is unattainable for man, for he is in universe whereas ultimate truth can only be know "outside" of universe, atleast ultimate truth about our universe. Does it mean there are more ultimate truths? I do not think so but I cannot prove it.

 

[Jainarayan]

Well, I believe the ultimate truth is that Brahman Alone is Real. What does that mean? It means that Consciousness/God/Brahman is the fundamental on which the entire universe is derived. As a creative act/play/drama of Brahman He separates Himself from Himself and returns Himself to Himself. The material universe is just the props in this play/drama. It is all divine play.

Very much. sarvam khalvidam brahma, "all of this is Brahman". This is probably my favorite among the mahāvākyāni. The second one is brahma satyam jagan mithyā, "Brahman is real; the world is unreal" (though try telling a gunshot victim his wound is not real).

 

[George-ananda]

The second one is brahma satyam jagan mithyā, "Brahman is real; the world is unreal" (though try telling a gunshot victim his wound is not real).

or (though try telling an RF materialist atheist the world is unreal)

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It seems to me that many RF posters believe there is no ultimate truth; or if there is, we cannot get to know it. IMO, Jesus Christ believed truth was attainable. He famously said: "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
Do you believe the truth exists and is available to those seeking for it? Are people afraid of the truth?

What is "ultimate" truth? Is that different from just plain truth.

My definition of truth is that quality that facts possess, facts being linguistic strings that accurately depict an aspect of reality. This is decided by consulting reality first (observing evidence, empiricism), trying to generalize about what one has seen, and using that information in one's mental map to successfully navigate reality, by which I mean obtain expected outcomes. That's the measure of the validity of an idea about physical (and even much of psychological) reality.

This is from an anonymous Internet source:

"We should expect similar decisions made under similar circumstances to lead to similar outcomes. Pragmatism says that the ultimate measure of a true or false proposition lies in its capacity to produce expected results. If an idea is true, it can be used in the real world to generate predictable consequences, and different ones if that idea turned out to be false. In other words, the ultimate measure of a true proposition is the capacity to inform decisions under the expectation of desirable consequences.

"All we need to know is that we have desires and preferences, we make decisions, and we experience sensory perceptions of outcomes. If a man has belief B that some action A will produce desired result D, if B is true, then doing A will achieve D. If A fails to achieve D, then B is false. Either you agree that truth should be measured by its capacity to inform decisions and produce results or you don't. If you agree, then we can have a conversation. And if we disagree about some belief, we have a means to decide the issue.

"If this is not how your epistemology works - how you define truth - then we can't have a discussion, and I literally don't care what you think, since it has no effect on anything."

What he is saying is that if "truth" means something else to others, whatever that is is useless to him. and because of those differences, their is no way to come to accord. If we have a similar approach to reality, we can go back to where we last agreed, see where we diverged, and make our arguments for our respective divergent choices with the reasonable expectation that one of us might see the error he has made if indeed it is a logical error rather than just a difference in values that divides us.

But if only one of us uses that method, not only is there no hope of reconciling differences, but the thinking of the other is of no practical value. It can never be useful. The same source goes on to say:

"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? No matter what answer you give, literally nothing changes. No decision you will ever make in your entire lifetime can ever be influenced by the answer to this question. If nothing changes even in principle with respect to some proposition being true or false, then the distinction between them just vanishes.

"Truth has no meaning divorced from any eventual decision making process. The whole point of belief itself is to inform decisions and drive actions. Actions then influence events in the external world, and those effects lead to objective consequences. Take away any of these elements and truth immediately loses all relevance."

This, of course, is the great gulf between rational, empirical skepticism and faith based thought. Faith based thought isn't derived from examining evidence, and isn't amenable to revision upon encountering contradictory evidence. Neither can convince the other of anything.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

After having scanned all of the answers to the initial question, I can see that I am in the minority, and could very well agitate many posters here. Please know that my opinions are well considered and offered constructively and sincerely. Still, I must confess that I find no value in faith based thought. With all due respect to those that offered them, I find almost nothing among those responses that I can use. Most were about psychological experiences divorced from the senses.

I also have rich and meaningful psychological experiences - what some might call spiritual experiences, albeit unrelated to faith or religion, as when I connect with my world and feel a rush of enthusiasm combined with a sense of connectivity, mystery, awe and gratitude.

But I don't use the word "truth" at such moments. Truth has to be connected to knowledge about reality that, as I explained, helps one arrive at hoped for or expected outcomes. It's true if it helps me achieve my goals compared to ideas that do so less well, or recognize and avoid pitfalls. It's really a very practical orientation to truth.

Here's some truth - a fact: I live five blocks north and two blocks east of the pier on our local lake. With that knowledge,I can get to the pier, and in the most efficient way.There happen to be a large number of paths I can take, such as three blocks south, then two west, then two more south, but they're all based in the fact of five south and two west.

Now admittedly, that's banal and mundane,but to me, that's what meant by truth. Platitudes that lift the spirit or offer hope have they're place,but not in the box called "truth." Truth has to correlate with an examination of reality and the ability to make choices that lead to hoped for outcomes and avoid those that we wish to avoid. If we're not talking about that, I don't know why we're using the word "truth."

Worse, if we don't have a pragmatic or empiric aspect to our understanding of what the word means, we won't navigate life as peacefully or effectively.

 

[Curious George]

Oh I've upgraded to man with the yellow hat.

Your much more than him in my book, don't worry.

 

[Iti oj]

Your much more than him in my book, don't worry.

Aww. I wish you could see my big cheesy melty smile

 

[aoji]

Amazing how a second hand hearsay account, written decades after the apparent death of Jesus, has a direct quote that is trustworthy.

Faulty reasoning. Even if the words are direct quotes if your mind rejects it you will probably then argue that words spoken in a different time, in a different culture, in a different society, in a different language cannot possibly be translated into our current language, society, culture and time since words change, society and cultures change, language changes, and the written word can never capture the inflection, cannot hope to convey the emotion meant through the spoken word.

There are societies, for lack of a better word, who prided themselves on transmitting the actual words and, hopefully, as well as their original inflection. It's how the scriptures were transmitted before they were written down. What then seem to have happened is that mistakes were made when they the words were being copied or being translated.

As to the quote, "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free," we all make the mistake of thinking we know what was meant, and so take words literally. What if the words didn't mean what we think they meant? "Know," "Truth," and "free" may have much deeper meanings. Take for example the word, "know". IMO, to know something is not something that is known through the mind but rather after someone has had an experience which caused an epiphany then the mind knows that it is true, it is beyond logic, it is beyond reason. To know something someone has to experience it. Those who have experienced the Kingdom of God "know" exactly what those words mean, know what is Truth and what is Freedom. Reasoning backward, if knowing truth sets one free, then our not knowing truth means that we are not free.

"When you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male and the female will not be female ..., then you will enter the kingdom."
-The Gospel of Thomas, saying 22

"When you see one who was not born of a woman, bow down and worship. That is your Father."
-The gospel of Thomas, saying 15

"Whoever has come to know the world has discovered a carcass, and whoever has discovered a carcass is worth more than the world."
-The Gospel of Thomas, saying 56

"Whoever has come to know the world has discovered a body, and whoever has discovered the body is worth more than the world."
-Gospel of Thomas, saying 78

"Whoever recognizes father and mother will be called the child of a whore."
-Gospel of Thomas, saying 103

Those with [an] Eastern Religion mindset (say, Vedanta or Zen, for example) should be able to discern deeper meanings than the literal words.

"If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' tell them, 'It is motion and rest.'"
-The Gospel of Thomas, saying 50

Before trying to understand Zen sayings Plotinus' The Enneads is a nice mind twister. Study Zen sayings deeply enough and you will probably stop taking words literally.

 

[psychoslice]

There is such thing but you will never find it in any relgioin.

 

[Robert Landbeck]

It seems to me that many RF posters believe there is no ultimate truth; or if there is, we cannot get to know it. IMO, Jesus Christ believed truth was attainable. He famously said: "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
Do you believe the truth exists and is available to those seeking for it? Are people afraid of the truth?

Yes and No! I do not accept that such a perfect truth is available via the existing faith paradigm of history and tradition for that 'faith' is an all too human theological construct. So 'those seeking for it' will only find disappointment.

On the other hand, there appears to be something new taking place at the moment. "For individuals able to shake off their existing prejudices, imagine outside the cultural box of history, stand against the tides of group think and fashionable thought and spin, with the humility to allow their 'reason' to accept correction and the moral courage to learn something new, who will TEST, discover and confirm this new insight for themselves, an intellectual and moral revolution is under way; where the once impossible becomes inevitable, by the most potent, political, progressive, Non Violent Direct Action never imagined. One able to advance peace, justice, change and progress and which the modern national security state can neither stop nor interfere with." More at The Final Freedoms

 

[illykitty]

I won't pretend to have the answers, let alone the right ones... But I do think there is an objective material truth, which science attempts to discover and understand. Then there's what humans think. You could argue people hold an idea of truth in their minds, especially when it comes to morals, beliefs and society... Personally I think those are many truths. And with that, there's the contrast of wrongs or falsehoods.

Of course though, if you asked me to elaborate, especially on what those words mean in this context, I'd say it would be what makes humanity flourish and what makes it decline. For instance, one truth would be to not rape, especially vulnerable beings, it isn't conducive to human flourishing, however to ask about cultures, often there isn't one true way to do things, there's many ways that are fine. Better yet, ideally we'd learn from each other and realise our mistakes and correct them, while still retaining whatever we feel is precious to our culture. Just get rid of the bad, so to speak.

Religion wise, I don't think there's a truth, objectively, or at least I haven't seen evidence of it. I could entertain the idea of religious symbolism and subjective truth, but I've never seen anything to suggest it is objectively true and applicable to all.

 

[idav]

It seems to me that many RF posters believe there is no ultimate truth; or if there is, we cannot get to know it. IMO, Jesus Christ believed truth was attainable. He famously said: "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
Do you believe the truth exists and is available to those seeking for it? Are people afraid of the truth?

Truth exists and whether it is outside of our reach is to be determined. I think it is possible to know this truth and every observation and way to sense the world is a part of that truth.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It seems to me that many RF posters believe there is no ultimate truth; or if there is, we cannot get to know it. IMO, Jesus Christ believed truth was attainable. He famously said: "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
Do you believe the truth exists and is available to those seeking for it? Are people afraid of the truth?

I believe there are truths, but no ultimate Truth.
Whilst I realise it is probably hard to simply take my word for this, that has nothing to do with being afraid of the truth. Indeed, in some ways, life would be simpler with a single objective truth. Instead, I am looking to take personal responsibility for each and every decision I make.

I don't think this is particularly a theistic or atheistic thing, as I've met plenty on both 'sides' who shirk responsibility for their actions. But accepting that responsibility is more important to me than the 'Truth'.

 

[allfoak]

I believe there are truths, but no ultimate Truth.
Whilst I realise it is probably hard to simply take my word for this, that has nothing to do with being afraid of the truth. Indeed, in some ways, life would be simpler with a single objective truth. Instead, I am looking to take personal responsibility for each and every decision I make.

I don't think this is particularly a theistic or atheistic thing, as I've met plenty on both 'sides' who shirk responsibility for their actions. But accepting that responsibility is more important to me than the 'Truth'.

In order to take responsibility for our actions, i would think that we would want to live our life according to our highest ideal.
It is this highest ideal that i call truth.
As we live out the truth we become the truth.
Each level of truth becomes a stepping stone to the next.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

In order to take responsibility for our actions, i would think that we would want to live our life according to our highest ideal.
It is this highest ideal that i call truth.
As we live out the truth we become the truth.
Each level of truth becomes a stepping stone to the next.

I don't feel the need to wrap it up in that manner. But what you're referring to seems like a version of self-actualization, from a Maslow's hierarchical perspective.

 

[allfoak]

I don't feel the need to wrap it up in that manner. But what you're referring to seems like a version of self-actualization, from a Maslow's hierarchical perspective.

A very modified version.
Maslow was high school.

 

[David T]

Breathing. Seems like its important and maybe there is truth in breathing. Let's see it is true if the air suddenly disappeared I am dead. That's truth but why is that truth? Let's see no air no thoughts that is truth but why is that truth? I think thats harder to answer than we realize. So indeed these are kin ultimate truths. Maybe following these small truth leads somewhere? Its called the road less traveled, and a path not many venture on. In the Christian text " "this is my body this is my blood" is very important. Now if Jesus said "This is my brain and these are my ideas" then theology and the question would make total sense!!!

 

[lewisnotmiller]

A very modified version.
Maslow was high school.

Makes sense to me. Taking a truth, and using it as the stepping stone for a higher truth, right?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

It seems to me that many RF posters believe there is no ultimate truth; or if there is, we cannot get to know it. IMO, Jesus Christ believed truth was attainable. He famously said: "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
Do you believe the truth exists and is available to those seeking for it? Are people afraid of the truth?

The truth about what?