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Featured Is there such thing as a seeker?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Jan 11, 2021.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    There are a few well-known quotes I've read awhile back from the book Zen Mind Beginner's Mind about spirituality (in this case Dharmic practice) and being in the state of a beginner's mind:

    “In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few”

    “The true purpose [of Zen] is to see things as they are, to observe things as they are, and to let everything go as it goes... Zen practice is to open up our small mind.”

    “The goal of practice is always to keep our beginner’s mind.”

    and so forth.

    To all those who have a faith and grounded in it, do you believe you are still a seeker just as someone who is trying to find their religion or spiritual practice or do you not agree that to have a "Zen" mind one needs to have a beginner's mind also?

    Can one be an expert and a novice at the same time?
     
    #1 Unveiled Artist, Jan 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
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  2. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    I understand that in the grand scheme of things I honestly don't know squat about computers.
    But that fact does not prevent those whose computer literacy makes my knowledge seem godlike from asking me computer related questions.
     
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  3. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    That would be the goal for this life.

    A novice would see many possibilities while an expert sees few, yet still, an old dog can learn new tricks. =0]
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    How would you see if an computer expert asked you about computers while still maintaining what he knows as an expert?

    Do you believe if an expert asked you about computers, would she no longer be an expert?
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Can they be both?
     
  6. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Depends entirely on what it is I am being asked about.
    Computers is a rather huge area of discussion.
    Being that is as it is, I would not be the least bit surprised that someone who is considered an expert in their field (for lack of a better term) of computers is asking someone in a different field (Again, for lack of a better term) questions.

    Way back in the day when I first started in the computer field I was shocked that the head tech would often give to me problem cases.
    Most of which I figured out rather quickly.

    When I finally asked him about it he flat out said that he has been in the computer business so long he tends to skip over "newbie" stuff without even realizing it.
    So he gives those cases to me because being new, I went through the whole check list, even things it could not possibly be, because I did not have the experience to skip over the "newbie" stuff.
     
  7. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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  8. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    A student knows nothing.
    A bachelor knows something.
    A master knows all the relevant things.
    A Ph.D. thinks he knows almost everything.
    An expert is aware of how much he doesn't know.
     
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  9. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Beginners mind stands for humility. Without humility how can one ever reach the highest goal in life?
    Hence in India they claim "Even on the path of Jnana (wisdom), you should never forget Bhakti (devotion, stands also for humility)"
     
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  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    No?

    Expert can be aware of what he doesn't know but then wouldn't that make him a novice?
    A novice can admit he doesn't know and still continue to learn without saying he's an expert.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Could you call a novice humble for being a novice (and admitting as such)?
     
  12. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I would not call a novice humble for being a novice
    I would not call a novice humble for admitting being a novice

    Admitting means that he is honest and realistic, not necessarily humble
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I wouldn't say so. Someone who lacks knowledge can be just as humble as one with knowledge.

    If a wise one is able he should see no inherent difference between he and the novice. The novice would be humble if he put his pride aside he may see his teacher on the same level (not made a phrophet) while respecting the wisdom he receives.
     
  14. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    You misread what I wrote. I did not speak about "needing knowledge", you made that one up, this was not in my reply nor in my mind
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It's what I thought you meant. I don't know what's in your mind. I just go off what I read and my opinions off such.

    Instead, can you rephrase what you meant since I misread it.
     
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I meant literally what I said here. IF I am a novice does not imply I am humble as per definition. You can either be humble or not humble.

    Same here. Take my words exactly what they mean in English language.
    Admitting I am a novice only tells that I am a novice. It does not imply I am humble as per definition. I can either be humble or not humble

    Of course it's a good thing to admit being humble IF one is humble
    although shouting it from the roof might give the impression that one is not humble:D

    Atheists define Atheism as "lack of believe in God"
    Maybe one can define humble as "Lack of arrogance"
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Stvd. I'm offering my opinion and reflection to what you wrote not putting words in your mouth. They may agree with or they may not. It just means that's how I would see it in relation to what you wrote.
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Exactly hence, I just corrected the words you misinterpreted, no more no less.
    Of course, giving your opinion is always good. And I'm fine if we disagree with each other:)
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Stvdv. This is how I would see it.

    I used the term "needing knowledge" in my opinion as a reflection of what you wrote. In my opinion, a novice can be humble just as an expert. When I say novice, I saw lack of knowledge and an expert one who has knowledge (wisdom, so have you). Just because (and this is coming from me), just because one has more wisdom than the other, doesn't make one humble and one not.

    This was a response to your post:
    I was just saying I see it differently not changing what you said or putting words in your mouth.
     
  20. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I completely agree.

    I completely agree.

    Okay, if you write it like this, it's perfectly clear. Thanks for explaining.

    I completely agree.
     
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