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Featured Is there evil in Heaven? If so can Heaven really be perfect?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hella Jingles, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. Hella Jingles

    Hella Jingles Member

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    Satan have evil intentions despite knowing what was better for himself. was the most loved angel too meaning he had life extraordinarily well in heaven.
     
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  2. Hella Jingles

    Hella Jingles Member

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    I've read it multiple times. You're telling me he didn't have a choice though?
    So we CAN'T act evil in heaven even if we wanted too? Sounds like slavery.
    Not the kind of slavery where you work in a field. But the kind of slavery of having an unpaid butler. never being able to speak against you, dresses nice to pretend to enjoy higher life, does all the work, and stands there looking nice and showing your rank as his owner.
     
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  3. Deidre

    Deidre Well-Known Member

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    I read something recently about this idea and it went something like this...from an apologist - ''mankind will still have the free will to sin, but will lose the capacity to sin in heaven.'' o_O

    I guess this apologist bought God an iphone, and perhaps they text back and forth to really get down to the specifics of life after death. And then that apologist comes back to his congregants, asks for their tithe in exchange for a bit of that ''good news.''

    Even as a practicing Christian, I struggled with these silly concepts of heaven and hell, and why an almighty God would need to give his ''children'' an eternal time out for disobeying him.
     
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  4. eldios

    eldios Active Member

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    Everything about you in this world except your consciousness will be deleted from the program. You do not have any choice in the matter.
     
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  5. Hella Jingles

    Hella Jingles Member

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    Then why try? Why should anybody try?
    I won't remember my family in Heaven if I make it. I won't remember myself in hell if I don't worship.
    Why should I try to get into the after life then? I think I'll take your news and use it to travel further from God, so that I might make my true consciousness count while I have it.
     
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  6. eldios

    eldios Active Member

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    You have no choice but because of the way you were created, it appears you have some choices. All created men will be saved from their wicked flesh born of Satan.

    Isaiah 43
    1: But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.
    2: When you pass through the waters I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you.

    Titus 2:11
    11: For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,

    I Timothy 4:10
    10: For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

    Psalms 22
    27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.

    John 5:
    25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
    26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
    27: and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
    28: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice.
     
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  7. Hella Jingles

    Hella Jingles Member

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    Then I'll live worldly because my afterlife won't matter.
     
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  8. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven. The mere fact that "evil" was close to Heaven, in some form, doesn't really mean much.
     
    #48 Desert Snake, Jul 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  9. eldios

    eldios Active Member

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    You will live forever according to the program.
     
  10. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    No, the scripture says that Abraham couldn't give the man any water, as in, not possible. That's what the scripture says.
     
  11. Yohanan ben Yaaqov

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    The word “lucifer” is not found anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures. In fact it is not found anywhere in several chr-stian translations of the Hebrew Scriptures either.

    In the translations that do use the word “lucifer,” it only occurs one time, and that is at Isaiah 14:12. However what Y’sha’yahu 14:12 actually states is:


    אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם הֵילֵל בֶּנ־שָׁחַר נִגְדַּעתָּ לָאָרֶץ חוֹלֵשׁ עַל־גּוֹיִם׃
    ʾÉyḵ’ nafal’ta mishamayim Héylél ben-Shaḥar nig’daʿta laʾaretz ḥolésh ʿal-goyim:


    “How you have fallen from heaven, Héylél ben-Shaḥar. You have been chopped down to the ground; you who cast lots upon nations.”

    So the question of the day is: What does Héylél ben-Shaḥar actually mean?

    To begin with, the word – הֵילֵל – Héylél is a Proper Noun, and is in fact a name. It is the Hebrew name of the planet Venus. The word – שָׁחַר – shaḥar means dawn, daybreak, morning, sunrise, etc. The appropriate English translation is “Venus, the morning star.”

    This has absolutely nothing to do with the imaginary chr-stian “devil.” In fact Y’sha’yahu 14:4 tells us exactly what type of story this is, and exactly to whom it is being told.


    וְנָשָׁאתָ הַמָּשָׁל הַזֶּה עַל־מֶלֶךְ בָּבֶל...׃
    V’nashaʾta hammashal hazzeh ʿal-meleḵ’ Bavel…:


    “You will bear this mashal upon the King of Babylon…”

    What is a mashal? The Verb – מָשַׁל – mashal means to speak metaphorically, therefore it is not difficult to understand that the Noun – מָשָׁל – mashal means metaphor, allegory, fable, parable, fairytale, etc.

    It is a metaphorical story directed at the King of Babylon. Verse 12 is comparing the King of Babylon to Venus, the morning star. It is about the fall of Nebuchadnezzar II, who wouldn’t even be born until nearly 90 years after this prophecy was given to Y’sha’yahu. Absolutely nothing to do with chr-stianity’s imaginary “devil.”

     
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  12. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    Well, it is a Christian-based question. Judaism doesn't mention Lucifer or any angels that ever rebelled against G-d. This means that much of your premise isn't applicable to Judaism.

    However, I was interested whether evil, or the related freewill, exists in Heaven as understood by Judaism.

    Evil can be defined as turning away from G-d's Laws. It comes about from humans exercising their freewill and making bad choices. Our bad choices are sourced to the physical needs of our bodies, e.g. hunger becomes gluttony, and needs becomes greed. The whole purpose of freewill is an educational tool.

    Once our body dies, our soul goes to Gehinnom to be purified. After purification, our soul goes to Heaven. The souls in Heaven are purified, i.e. they know what the correct choices are, they don't need further education to make the correct choice. Thus, evil just isn't chosen by the souls in Heaven. So it doesn't exist there.
     
  13. idav

    idav Being
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    "Evil" is part of perfection. Bible stories never does get rid of the issue. The closest bible comes to getting rid of evil is in revelations when the answer is to torment the evil instead. If god can't do both good or evil as god wills then there is a flaw.
     
  14. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    It all really depends on what definition of "Evil" you want to use.

    If we use a rather "traditional" definition, the "Seven Deadly Sins", the answer is a strict no, with one exception.

    Gluttony and Lust are both attachments to physical pleasures. In a world of spirit physical pleasure is impossible.
    Similarly Sloth is an attachment to physical comfort. Again, as this sin is physical, it cannot exist in a non-physical realm.
    Greed and Envy are all about physical possessions, impossible to have in a non-physical world, so they are impossible there as well.
    Wrath is about a desire for vengeance against physical slights you have suffered. In a realm where you can suffer no slights or harm, how can this evil exist either??

    Pride is about an attachment to your own self-image. It, alone, of the traditional Seven Deadly Sins is the only evil that could potentially logically exist in the common conception of what "Heaven" is. And that even fits in with what you are saying because the story of Satan's rebellion says it was due to his Pride. So maybe you are right. The evil of Pride could potentially exist in Heaven.

    Potentially, at least. There's an argument to be made that a prideful person would not be admitted to Heaven. And notice the moment that Satan develops Pride, he is cast out of Heaven. Assuming this is the usual case, one could state that the moment one develops the one evil that does not require material objects to exist, they are cast out of Heaven, therefore Heaven has no evil within it at all.

    But, again, this all depends on the definition of Evil you want to use in the first place, but it is an interesting theological thought none-the-less.
     
  15. The magical volleyball

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    So how would you even know if you were in heaven if you don't have any senses to experience it?)
     
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  16. BSM1

    BSM1 What? Me worry?

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    Excellent question! However, senses can be misleading and contorted, so I guess Heaven would have to be pure Truth (with a capital T). This Truth would have to transcend any experience, sensation, or knowledge we have or could ever conceive in our present forms. Again, IMHO.
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I can agree up to a point, but those fallen angels in Noah's day are Not in heaven but cast into a biblical tartarus according to 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6. Also, please note that Satan was cast out of heaven according to Revelation 12:9,12 so there is No evil inside of heaven. And the time is coming when there will be No more evil on Earth.
    The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of evil ones as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
    Hebrews 2:14 B lets us know that Jesus will also destroy Satan. So, even evil Satan will be gone forever.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Everyone's concept of heaven, or to me the concept of heaven that Jesus has such as found at Hebrews 9:24.
    The religious-myth teaching about a forever-burning hell is a man-made concept outside of Scripture.
    The 'Bible's hell' is simply the grave for the un-conscious sleeping dead as Jesus taught at John 11:11-14.
    The grave is Not a man-made concept as cemeteries show there are graves, there are tombs.
    Man-made hell-fire teachings teach the dead are conscious which is the opposite of Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead know nothing. The dead 'sleep in death' according to Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4.
    Earth ( which is the only planet named by God as found at Genesis 1:10 ) is Not a man-made concept.
    Earth and the grave/tombs are real and crime on Earth is real. So, to me what the Bible teaches about an end to evil on Earth is Not a man-made concept or teaching, but what the Bible really teaches that Peace on Earth is coming to Earth via Jesus taking the action of Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 so that earth's nations will be blessed.
    Blessed with the benefits of food for all and healing for earth's nations according to Revelation 22:2.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Torment evil, or rather get rid of evil as per Proverbs 2:21-22. Even enemy death and hell (biblical grave) will come to a final end according to Revelation 1:18; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.

    The gift of free-will choices is Not in conflict with perfection. Adam had perfection in a relative sense and Not in an absolute sense. Many things have relative perfection such as a sharp knife is perfect for cutting but who would eat soup with a knife. If Adam had lacked the ability to choose to break God's Law then Adam would have been 'incomplete'. Without free-will choices Adam would have then been imperfect and a robot.
    Both Satan and Adam failed in appreciation and love for the life that God gifted to them.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In Scripture, I find the teaching about resurrection, which is very different from an ' after life teaching '.
    Afterlife to me teaches that a person is more alive at death than before death.
    Whereas, the Bible teaches the dead know nothing according to Ecclesiastes 9:5
    Knows nothing but un-conscious sleep according to Jesus at John 11:11-14, and Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4.
    In other words, the dead are Not aware of the passing of time as we are Not aware of time's passing while asleep.

    If you don't want to pick the day you want to die, then perhaps consider that at the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37 that the living can remain alive on Earth, and continue living on Earth right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins.

    So, instead of afterlife, if we die before Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth we could have a happy-and-healthy 'physical resurrection' back to life on Earth when enemy death will be No more - 1 Corinthians 15:26.
     
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