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Is there anything in the concepts of deity that is not arbitrary?

Athosxc

Member
I would start with your definition of "God" so that we can truly have a meaningful conversation. There are many examples of deities that you listed that wouldn't fit the bill of "God", regardless of what faith you come from. There are a few prerequisites for being "God". 1) God must be the most powerful being of all beings. If something more powerful comes along, then the less powerful being is put in a position of no longer being God. That being could be called - in human terms - "like a god" compared to humans, but is only an imitation. 2) God must be the most knowledgeable being of all beings. If another being comes along that knows more, then it can technically overcome the first being by virtue of greater knowledge or understanding, thus rendering the first being no longer God. The first being may be called - in human terms - "like a god" in intellect compared to humans, but is only an imitation of the being that is most knowledgeable. 3) God must be able to be anywhere at any time. This is in part a subset of the most powerful being category, but with a different nuance. Not only must God be unlimited in power, but God must be unlimited in presence. If another being can be in a place that the first being cannot, then the actions/plans/ideas of the first being can be thwarted by limitations of time and space and getting beaten to the punch so to speak, and rendering it no longer in the position of being God. That being may be called - in human terms - "like a God" compared to humans in its ability to arrive in a certain time and place, but is only an imitation of the more powerful being.

When we deal with the concept of "God", you will be hard-pressed to honestly render a being as "God" in your mind that doesn't fit these 3 qualifications. And these are just 3 of the considerations. We haven't broached the topics involved with the character of that being, the influence of that being, or anything else. Just looking at the 3 levels of ability of that being are enough to cancel most "deities" out of the "God" category. (i.e. - ALL the greek/roman pantheon gods are out, the titans are out, Krishna is out, buddha is out, etc) My point is, it is actually not so mundane a thing to realistically qualify a being as "God". It is not as arbitrary a matter as to simply "declare whatever a deity". The being cannot be limited to being symbolic, finite, or natural, mundane only, or even cosmic only, because there are "greater" examples of all of those things. In limiting "God" to those things, we effectively remove them from the category we seek to discuss.

The second implied part of your original question deals more with the know-ability of "God" (e.g. the "humanly understandable attributes, role in creation of existence, plan for that creation of existence). THAT question, is definitely going to fall into the category of "faith". How do we come to know that a written work represents the thoughts and intentions of communication from "God"? By faith. Evidence may or may not support the claim, but it is by faith that the information is accepted as true. How do we come to see known universe as being a creation of "God"? By faith. Evidence may or may not support the claim, but it is by faith that it is accepted as true.

There is quite a bit that can be discussed about God, that is not arbitrary, we simply have to start with a good definition and parameters for that definition that are fair for the assessment of the "God" of any faith, and then we have to accept what is true about the nature o the discussion itself.

Hope these thoughts help!
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I would start with your definition of "God" so that we can truly have a meaningful conversation. There are many examples of deities that you listed that wouldn't fit the bill of "God", regardless of what faith you come from. There are a few prerequisites for being "God". 1) God must be the most powerful being of all beings. If something more powerful comes along, then the less powerful being is put in a position of no longer being God. That being could be called - in human terms - "like a god" compared to humans, but is only an imitation. 2) God must be the most knowledgeable being of all beings. If another being comes along that knows more, then it can technically overcome the first being by virtue of greater knowledge or understanding, thus rendering the first being no longer God. The first being may be called - in human terms - "like a god" in intellect compared to humans, but is only an imitation of the being that is most knowledgeable. 3) God must be able to be anywhere at any time. This is in part a subset of the most powerful being category, but with a different nuance. Not only must God be unlimited in power, but God must be unlimited in presence. If another being can be in a place that the first being cannot, then the actions/plans/ideas of the first being can be thwarted by limitations of time and space and getting beaten to the punch so to speak, and rendering it no longer in the position of being God. That being may be called - in human terms - "like a God" compared to humans in its ability to arrive in a certain time and place, but is only an imitation of the more powerful being.

When we deal with the concept of "God", you will be hard-pressed to honestly render a being as "God" in your mind that doesn't fit these 3 qualifications. And these are just 3 of the considerations. We haven't broached the topics involved with the character of that being, the influence of that being, or anything else. Just looking at the 3 levels of ability of that being are enough to cancel most "deities" out of the "God" category. (i.e. - ALL the greek/roman pantheon gods are out, the titans are out, Krishna is out, buddha is out, etc) My point is, it is actually not so mundane a thing to realistically qualify a being as "God". It is not as arbitrary a matter as to simply "declare whatever a deity". The being cannot be limited to being symbolic, finite, or natural, mundane only, or even cosmic only, because there are "greater" examples of all of those things. In limiting "God" to those things, we effectively remove them from the category we seek to discuss.

The second implied part of your original question deals more with the know-ability of "God" (e.g. the "humanly understandable attributes, role in creation of existence, plan for that creation of existence). THAT question, is definitely going to fall into the category of "faith". How do we come to know that a written work represents the thoughts and intentions of communication from "God"? By faith. Evidence may or may not support the claim, but it is by faith that the information is accepted as true. How do we come to see known universe as being a creation of "God"? By faith. Evidence may or may not support the claim, but it is by faith that it is accepted as true.

There is quite a bit that can be discussed about God, that is not arbitrary, we simply have to start with a good definition and parameters for that definition that are fair for the assessment of the "God" of any faith, and then we have to accept what is true about the nature o the discussion itself.

Hope these thoughts help!

These are surely your own personal parameters of what constitutes God? These traits don't all fit God as I see God, for example.
 

Athosxc

Member
Kirran, I purposely left off my own views of God. I simply discussed the concept of God as a term and in definitive terms. I also did not include many aspects of God that could have been brought in. I simply looked at the ....for lack of a better term coming to mind..."job description/qualifications" of a being being termed "God". I will give an example using myself, which proves that I have never been, am not currently, and could never be God. 1) I am not all powerful, not even in my own life. There are simply to many things to mention that I cannot do. There are approx. 7 billion people on this planet, and most of them can do things I cannot. It is not that I am not capable of quite a few things, some people that know me have told me I am more capable than most people they know in most situations. But I am far too limited to be considered worthy of the title of God. 2) I am not all knowing....not even of myself! I figure out things about myself all the time that I recognize then I have always felt that way, or done things that way, but was not self-aware of it. I do not know my physical, emotional, mental limits at all times. I cannot instantly self-diagnose if my liver is having issues, or fix it even if I could. I dont know how many skin cells I just lost, I don't know exactly how I will feel tomorrow. I am not stupid by any means. I have a genius IQ, I have a "genius" EQ, I have 5 degrees and am working on a 6th. I am a book-smart individual, and have decent common sense as well. But I am not even close to the intellect of many of the people I have had the pleasure of meeting in my life. I am not anywhere close to being considered god-like in my knowledge. It would be the height of arrogance for me to assume that I was, because on any given day I meet people who could prove otherwise by comparison! 3) I am not all present. I end up late to places. I cannot travel when I want, where I want, in the manner I want. I have been many places in my life and seen some amazing things. But I have missed many things too, due to a lack of ability to be there. I am not god-like in my presence of location.

Now,there are many things that you don't know about me. There are a few that you now do know about me. If I gave you my facebook account name you could glean much more information about me. All of it together would convince you that I am a capable person in many ways, and not-so-capable in others! :) But I can promise you, that if you and I are both honest, we will agree together, that I could never be God. I simply don't fit the "job description/qualifications" in general to be considered "God" of ....well.....anything! And here's the thing, I am not even in absolute control of my own authority! Don't believe me? What do you think would happen if I decided all the money in the local bank was mine and went and demanded it "...or else..." from the bank teller? My personal authority would go out the window by another person and groups of people who would take all authority from me! Even my personal authority would fall under theirs..."or else". I don't get to make up my own mind free and clear when I make decisions, because there are ALWAYS outside influences getting in and contributing to my thinking and feeling. I could keep going, but the point is very clear....I am not....In ANY way qualified to claim the title of God. Regardless of my faith or religion, I am not God....never have been, never could be...just don't fit the bill.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Kirran, I purposely left off my own views of God. I simply discussed the concept of God as a term and in definitive terms. I also did not include many aspects of God that could have been brought in. I simply looked at the ....for lack of a better term coming to mind..."job description/qualifications" of a being being termed "God". I will give an example using myself, which proves that I have never been, am not currently, and could never be God. 1) I am not all powerful, not even in my own life. There are simply to many things to mention that I cannot do. There are approx. 7 billion people on this planet, and most of them can do things I cannot. It is not that I am not capable of quite a few things, some people that know me have told me I am more capable than most people they know in most situations. But I am far too limited to be considered worthy of the title of God. 2) I am not all knowing....not even of myself! I figure out things about myself all the time that I recognize then I have always felt that way, or done things that way, but was not self-aware of it. I do not know my physical, emotional, mental limits at all times. I cannot instantly self-diagnose if my liver is having issues, or fix it even if I could. I dont know how many skin cells I just lost, I don't know exactly how I will feel tomorrow. I am not stupid by any means. I have a genius IQ, I have a "genius" EQ, I have 5 degrees and am working on a 6th. I am a book-smart individual, and have decent common sense as well. But I am not even close to the intellect of many of the people I have had the pleasure of meeting in my life. I am not anywhere close to being considered god-like in my knowledge. It would be the height of arrogance for me to assume that I was, because on any given day I meet people who could prove otherwise by comparison! 3) I am not all present. I end up late to places. I cannot travel when I want, where I want, in the manner I want. I have been many places in my life and seen some amazing things. But I have missed many things too, due to a lack of ability to be there. I am not god-like in my presence of location.

Now,there are many things that you don't know about me. There are a few that you now do know about me. If I gave you my facebook account name you could glean much more information about me. All of it together would convince you that I am a capable person in many ways, and not-so-capable in others! :) But I can promise you, that if you and I are both honest, we will agree together, that I could never be God. I simply don't fit the "job description/qualifications" in general to be considered "God" of ....well.....anything! And here's the thing, I am not even in absolute control of my own authority! Don't believe me? What do you think would happen if I decided all the money in the local bank was mine and went and demanded it "...or else..." from the bank teller? My personal authority would go out the window by another person and groups of people who would take all authority from me! Even my personal authority would fall under theirs..."or else". I don't get to make up my own mind free and clear when I make decisions, because there are ALWAYS outside influences getting in and contributing to my thinking and feeling. I could keep going, but the point is very clear....I am not....In ANY way qualified to claim the title of God. Regardless of my faith or religion, I am not God....never have been, never could be...just don't fit the bill.

Absolutely, I respect that, and realise you weren't claiming Godhood personally as well. But I still think these parameters are too restricting to truly represent what God can be. As I say, I believe in God, but for me God doesn't fulfill your parameters.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I don't think those are constantly present even if we restrict ourselves to Abrahamic conceptions of deity.
In QM those things are present in the fabric of our existence. Light for example is calculated to be timeless and that's just one power for a deity definition. The universe is that powerful. The fabric of our existence is that power and the big bang happened everywhere in the universe, we are still part of what was since the beginning, just inflated.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I did not. May you elaborate?
Well don't want to spoil the movie.
Lucy becomes everything everywhere
Same concept on the new movie Transcendence. I think this stuff is more than just science fiction. We are just barely figuring out how awesome the universe is and it isn't as mundane as classical physics like to make us think through our day to day lives.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
For example God cannot be contingent. If God--and while I speak of God using personal pronouns here, I am actually speaking of an order of reality, which we call also term (capital B) Being, that is necessary to explain the cause of contingent, i.e. material, reality without inconsistencies-- were himself subject to cause and effect than appealing to such a concept would benefit us nothing in terms of an explanation for reality. Therefore if what we mean by God has any actual meaning in reality than God cannot be contingent, and since this is the case he also cannot be complex, e.g. made of parts. To use Aquinas' language God is pure act. Only such a God as this can act as a logically necessary explanation for material reality. As it turns out the Judeo-Christian God, who appears in history fits this definition perfectly, but that is an answer to a different question. Here we are not asking what God is real, but simply what God must be like if he were real. To to be clear if God were real then he couldn't have arbitrary characteristics. Now if you are talking about gods who are simply human inventions, then yes they can be arbitrary as the plethora of such gods already demonstrates in fact. But why waste your time asking such a question in the first place? God only matters if he really exists, and so again if he does exist then he must have certain totally non-arbitrary characteristics.

You can not define a being into existence by the properties it has. No more than one being tall, fat, etc defines a person as human. You invoke causality then via special pleading remove it after it has suited the purpose you want. Anything that causes an effect is subject to causality. If God created anything, which most religion claim God has done, then it is part of causality
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I think you are really overselling the movie's core concept, personally.
The world is infinite as are people.
The mind is the most powerful machine we know of. If the mind can't do it. Nothing humans make can.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
I agree that people's decisions regarding a deity are entirely arbitrary. People think they have free will with regard to religious choice, but in actuality it depends on environment, friends and family, genetic profile, and many other factors that make them highly likely to be religious. Evolutionary biology implies that religion has a survival advantage because it branded communities, thus demonstrating that religion is man made just like government. Additionally, everyone picks and chooses the particular cafeteria God that they're in the mood for. The pick and choose morals and then say God aligns with those, therefore justifying them and providing a basis for moral duties. Fortunately holy books are full of so many contradictions that you can justify and morality you choose. Of course these people then tell us that there's no way we can have objective morality without God, when they're subjectively determining the mind of God and his perfect moral code. You cannot find objectivity from a subjective interpretation. So what is religion even good for, in addition to arbitrary? Nobody has special knowledge of the mind of God, and its either schizophrenic or extremely arrogant to suggest that you are so special that you have a hotline to God.

Then you get a confirmation bias--someone like Francis Collins who has an 'experience' like seeing three frozen waterfalls along with a surge of energy flowing through him, which made him feel that the trinity was communicating with him. But these experiences are all meaningless. There's no basis from which to associate these experiences with an ancient book made in bronze age Palestine made by superstitious peasants who didnt know the earth orbited the sun. Its a non sequitur. Seek and ye shall find is a common mantra that accurately explains looking for things which aren't there
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I am going for the discussion subject which the movie touched on.

To the best of my understanding, the healthy relative of that subject is interdependent origination.

Pratītyasamutpāda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There seems to be a danger of being trapped into fantasies of personal cosmic significance in there, though. It does not help that the movie seems to rely in the "10% of the brain" myth for its premise.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Indeed! And that is my point. There is no evidence whatsoever that any view about God is even non-arbitrary.



One has to ask why he made it so easy for people to develop such divergent views about his existence and nature. If that is not indication of callousness, it does at the very least hint of a very poor planning sense.

I believe the Bible has evidence of what God says about himself. One may have different views about the evidence but it is still evidence. I believe there are other texts that are helpful aslo although the source of the evidence may not be as good.

I believe He is working towards our salvation and that can be a long and difficult process.

I believe it is not callousness or bad planning but simply patience for the plan to work out in time.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I believe the Bible has evidence of what God says about himself. One may have different views about the evidence but it is still evidence. I believe there are other texts that are helpful aslo although the source of the evidence may not be as good.

I believe He is working towards our salvation and that can be a long and difficult process.

I believe it is not callousness or bad planning but simply patience for the plan to work out in time.

Sorry to say, but that is just not at all convincing. I'm actually surprised that believers in the Bible exist in any meaningful numbers.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
To the best of my understanding, the healthy relative of that subject is interdependent origination.

Pratītyasamutpāda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There seems to be a danger of being trapped into fantasies of personal cosmic significance in there, though. It does not help that the movie seems to rely in the "10% of the brain" myth for its premise.
Yes I got passed that whole 10 percent business and I dont think it requires 100 percent capacity to tap into the source. The source is literally everything. The qualifications for deity can and do exist. Existence wins.
 
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