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Featured Is there any punishment in Islam for breaking a wife's arm?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Richerd92, Oct 30, 2020.

  1. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    Yes there are verses saying you should treat them nicely. But is there actually any legit punishment if you dont?

    " Ar-Rubayy' bint Mu'awwidh bin 'Afra' narrated that Thabit bin Qais bin Shammas hit his wife and broke her arm --her name was Jamilah bint 'Abdullah bin Ubayy. Her brother came to the Messenger of Allah to complain about him, and the Messenger of Allah sent for Thabit and said: "Take what she owes you and let her go." He said: "Yes." And the Messenger of Allah ordered her to wait for one menstrual cycle and then go to her family."

    Grade : Hasan (Darussalam)

    Sunan an-Nasa'i 3497
    Hadith - The Book of Divorce - Sunan an-Nasa'i - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

    Just i dont get indications, unless i missed something?
     
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  2. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    You won't find anything in even the secular criminal law that sets out a punishment for breaking a wife's arm. Why, then, do you expect to find such a thing in Islam?

    What are you trying to do with this exercise, poking about in the hadiths for obscure sayings?
     
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  3. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    Pretty sure you get charged for murder attempt or assault if you get reported to the authorites for it in secular countries "Atleast western democracies"
     
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  4. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    To start with, a criminal charge is not a punishment. Punishment is decided by a judge after a conviction and depends on the circumstances.

    Why do you think Islam should contain a rule book of punishments when our own criminal justice system does not?
     
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  5. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    because they have it on everything else. Adultery = Stoning to death
     
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  6. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    That is also in the Christian/Jewish bible, which will be why it is in Islam too.

    Do "they", whoever "they" are, have punishments laid out for everything else? What is the punishment for , say, punching a man in the face? And does depend on whether or not teeth are knocked out? If not, why not?
     
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  7. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    Well Stoning for Adultery is Jewish Laws, not Christian. That stuff was switched over to new covenant that christians live under. Which basically replaces law of moses with law in christ, so the whole stoning people for crimes is more a Jewish thing

    Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:31-34 - New International Version
    “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    32 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they broke my covenant,
    though I was a husband toa]">[a] them,b]">[b]”
    declares the Lord.
    33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,” declares the Lord.
    “I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
    34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
    because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest,”
    declares the Lord.
    “For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”

    Here is new testament mention by Paul
    Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 3:11-14 - New International Version
    11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”a]">[a] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”b]">[b] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”c]">[c] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
     
  8. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    Also fyi, western countries dont rely on religion as head of government. Islamic countries still does this. Which is reason why Catholicism in Europe was bad basically. Devotion cultures creates rules that makes problem for progress
     
  9. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Right, so stoning for adultery is in the Judaeo-Christian tradition too. Very good.

    But this is far from evidence that "they", whoever "they" are, have punishments laid out for everything else.

    So, to return to my question to you, what is "their" punishment for , say, punching a man in the face? Does it depend on whether or not teeth are knocked out, and if not, why not?
     
  10. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Wrong.They do not, with the possible exception of Iran. Not even Saudi Arabia.
     
  11. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    Turkey is the closest to secular nation though. I do like Indonesia though, people there are kind. But much of middle eastern countries still rely on religion as head of government.I think only Arab nation that is on its way to become democracy is Tunisia

    Also Saudi Arabia i just compare to the Vatican, i mean if they want those holy sites to have religious verdicts then i can see that. Just considering the historic context to how much they value it, same way as Israel etc. I think religious freedom matters somewhat on that level.

    Iran i feel is more political than religious, since the fall of Shah and they do kind of blame western countries for that, which is slightly not wrong interms of Churchill with the whole M16 agents and CIA agents removing democracy for a western friendly Shah. So yeah.. i cant blame them too much on that, even if theocracy isnt something i would rely on. But i think Iran is doing it more for political reasons and not so much because they want too.
     
  12. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    Lets just see if you are right for a second. I come from norway. The government there is constitutional democracy, a King can have a say for Yes and No, otherwise its free elections, free press, you can set up party as mandates to what people want to vote for. Left wing, right wing party. Religious freedom exists too... I cant speak for everyone.. but i think this is pretty common in much western democracies? USA is kind of more a republic but it still has some elements of those. Just without welfare focus and pretty much two big parties to pick from, so USA has certain issues.

    My criticism with social democracy atleast is i dont think Autism or sociology should be a thing since i always picture Dr.Silberman from Terminator, sort of easy way to oversaturate hospitals for wrong purposes and get money for that. I understand purely retarded vs functional people. Even then i tend to troll saying Hans Asperger who was a nazi was the one who made the whole Aspergers thing, even if he didnt made Autism a thing.
    But yeah exploitation is my one criticism of that. I respect doctors who help people with functional problems like body issues or sickness, but just not that type of stuff. One can argue this whole autism thing was made up just so they can sort out "Stubborn people = Autist" and easily manipulated gets a job. But thats one conspiracy i have, maybe its a systematic way of just making society the way it is here for that reason

    Either case, here is source to the guy.
    Hans Asperger - Wikipedia
     
  13. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

    DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan Well-Known Member

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    The Qur'an has a different punishment for witnessed and proven adultery. A set number of lashings and letting the adulterous couple live with one another in peace after their punishment.

    The Hadiths try to imitate the laws in the Bible more maybe, which differ from the Qur'an.

    Yet, none of that matters, so why not just come right out and say what has got your heart feeling bad, that Islam is rubbish, you hate Islam, you hate Muslims, you think they are corrupt and their religion is rotten. No need to be chicken about it (they eat chickens a lot), be a man.

    You don't like Islam, you don't care about Islam, you just want Islam to go away. Unfortunately, there are only so many "Richerds" and billions of people identifying as Muslims. You're out numbered, by far, which might explain why you feel the need to slither around and pretend to be worried about Muslim women's broken arms.

    I think "stoning to death" for adultery, is a very harsh punishment, one that was practiced by all the "Abrahamics" before Islam, are you on of the "Abrahamics"? If you are, you're likely a hypocrite, like most of them. See? I'm teaching you how to be a tough guy, and not crawl around like a rat or mouse, pooping here and there and everywhere.

    Or are you a (militant) Atheist? Then Islam isn't your problem specifically, but all religions should be, or do you typically start with whatever seems "brown" and then move to "yellow" and finally on to "white"?

    So, I don't know what "Islam" has to say about breaking arms, except that the Qur'an says not to even raise your hand in violence towards anyone, except in self defense. Most governments and countries these days have laws that are meant to protect and defend people who are the victims of violence and crime, but surely there are wife-beaters who associate with every religion.

    Maybe, if some of the "other browns" are right, you'll reincarnate as a Muslim wife who gets her arm broken by her thug of a husband, and then you can come back onto this forum (haha, I'm pretty sure it won't exist and all my writing will be deleted yet again!) or whatever new one, as "Richeda" and tell us all about how Islam doesn't have specific laws that helped you and your arm.

    In fact, I think that your punishment should be that your (surely well intended question, no?) be answered as thoroughly as possible by your reincarnation into a Muslim little baby girl who grows up into a Muslim wife who marries some hot shot bad boy who ends up being extremely abusive and breaks your arm on purpose, then you'll really have the answer you seek, no?

    Then maybe that evil man, as abusers may tend towards, also finally ends your life (Does Islam have any law against a Husband murdering his wife? No, nowhere in the Qur'an does it specifically mention a Husband murdering his Wife, must not mean anything to people durrrrr DURRRRR DURRUDU DDURRRRRR I AM FUL OF HATE DURRRR IM SO FULL OF HATE DURRRR (an impression of me, not you)), and then you reincarnate as a man who is abusive (or are you that already "Richerd"? Naughty boy, you like violence don't you? You like agitating people and getting violence to occur don't you? Huh, tough guy? You came itching for a fight, didn't you big boy?), and you break your wife's arm.

    Oh wait, you're also a Muslim in that scenario. Then you think to yourself "hmm, this isn't so bad, afterall, as a violent and abusive man, I can snap my wife's little crab-leg arm and get away with it, because Islam lacks any particular law regarding snapping a wife's arm, bwuahaha, and I even found this stupid irrelevant seeming Hadith to back me up bwuahahah! Who do I have to fear and what recourse do they have against me! Evil Muslim Richerd! I am Immune to Punishment, and there is in fact no God who minds my snapping the arm of my wife! How good it felt to snap it! I should snap the other, and her legs too! Bwuahaha! I know so much about Islam! It saves me from morality entirely! I love being an Evil Muslim!

    So, now you have it all, you understand why people are Muslims, it is so that they can snap their wives arms and get away with it, and many other evil deeds, which their God rewards them for most likely.

    Are you satisfied Richerd? You've now lived as a Muslim Woman (how was the sex?) married to a violent and abusive man (in bed too?) and you've lived as an Evil Muslim Man who snaps his wife's arm (felt good didn't it?), and finally understand everything about everything you really wanted to know. Allah hu Ackbar!

    The Qur'an is a scripture, a religious book, not a complete legal system for every nuance of criminal act, which has to be decided by the people, by the families, by the individuals, by the governments, etc, and these governments and peoples may all differ among themselves and have varying laws and requirements. Nowhere in history as far as I'm aware was it considered just hunky dory to purposefully break your own wife's arm as any sort of punishment or anything. The family of the wife was often still around, and might take vengeance upon you if they found you hurt their daughter or sister or whatever, you nasty man (I'm talking to Evil Muslim Arm Breaker Richerd, not curious snake innocent rat Richerd, or even you, I like you and I like the coward as well, more than Evil Muslim Arm Breaker Richerd, he is scary and mean, and so brown that I can barely see him when he stands in front of a UPS truck).

    ***mod delete***

    Behold how every question is answered! Be careful what you ask!
     
    #13 DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan, Oct 30, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2020
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  14. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

    DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure that the legal systems of Western countries did start out influenced by religious scriptures and ideas from those scriptures, no?
     
  15. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    Gonna assume you are American. But Racism is retarded, but that country has made a living of profiting of that with making it a thing "KKK, then anti racism media riling people up to blame people". Instead of poverty, lack of jobs, anti discrimination laws focus etc.

    But i am apathetic towards skin colour. I believe all cultures are equal, values are not equal though. If someone were to promote cannibalism and human sacrifice i would be bigoted against that. Also speaking of that. Here. I am criticising this guy right now :)


    If you wonder what my religion is. A new cult.

    God of Obvious Good and Evil, the idea is to promote obvious good and avoid obvious evil." Thats what i live by, nothing more, nothing less.
     
  16. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

    DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan Well-Known Member

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    What was Jesus doing in this scene (besides not washing his filthy little God-hands)?

    Mark 7:5-
    5So the Pharisees and scribes questioned Jesus: “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders? Instead, they eat with defiled hands.” 6 Jesus answered them, “Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. 7They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’…

    (PRECEPTS OF MEN, HMM, LIKE A PARTICULAR LAW ABOUT NOT BREAKING YOUR ARMS WIFE THAT MIGHT SOMEDAY APPEAR IN SOME LEGAL SYSTEM?)

    8You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men.” 9 He went on to say, You neatly set aside the command of God to maintain your own tradition. 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’

    11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever you would have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12he is no longer permitted to do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by the tradition you have handed down. And you do so in many such matters.”

    ______________
    Proverbs 23:13-
    "13Do not withhold discipline from a child; although you strike him with a rod, he will not die. 14 Strike him with a rod, and you will deliver his soul from Sheol.15"

    Proverbs 13:24
    He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

    Proverbs 22:15
    Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.

    See? So, bend over my son. We need to save your soul!

    1 Corinthians 5:5
    hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
     
  17. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

    DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan Well-Known Member

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    Are you serious about the New Cult thing? That would be interesting, problem is, its really just what you think or feel or decide is right or wrong, you can't really clearly prove every single thing that we consider wrong is actually wrong, you can't even prove that breaking a woman's arm is wrong or has any repercussions at all really.
     
  18. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    I think your problem is you assume i am a christian :p I make audiobooks of Sunni Hadiths because i think problem is people often relies more on politicians or media outlet than actually get to the bottom of how people practice or legislate their religious practice. And if one cant understand that then criticising or misconstruction of understanding is harder basically.

    Ah yes. Beating up children was normal in the past. Its childabuse now, so yeah. See i aint getting angry for that :) Whats the problem with criticising that? Nothing :)
     
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  19. Richerd92

    Richerd92 Member

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    Its common sense mentality

    Laying rules of rulers based upon genders is ancient trivial mentality. Point with this religious cult is.... dont do obvious bad thing since its bad. Its self explanatory. Sort of to solve the whole Abrahamic problem
     
  20. Hellbound Serpiente

    Hellbound Serpiente Active Member

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    I am surprise people are discussing this rather than recent terrorist attacks that has happened in France and other places.
     
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