Is there an official Trinity doctrine?

[Muffled]

Fun fact, the so-called "Athanasian Creed" was not actually composed by St. Athanasius. It was a Western text written in the 500's, more than a century after the death of St. Athanasius (who lived and was bishop in Alexandria, Egypt).

I believe it was based on his views.

 

[Muffled]

GINOLJC, to all
Addressing the OP only, and having not read all the posts, not saying that any is right or wrong, but consider this. "ONE person two titles". the title Father and the title Son is of the one person the Holy Spirit.
example, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" QUESTION, "who sent the Holy Spirit, was it a. the Father, or b. the Son? let's see.
the "Father", John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." ok, the Father sent the Holt Spirit... right. now this, John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" and this, John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

clearly the Father is sending the Holy Spirit, but the Son also. now this, John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." STOP, if both are coming, who then is sending?

now something else to think about,
John 14:16-18 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" 17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." 18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." so it is JESUS who is coming. but did not the Lord Jesus say that he is sending the Holy Spirit?.

so again my question, how is the Father and the Son, both sender, are dwelling in the believer, per John 14:23?

PICJAG.

I believe it raises the question as to what a sending is. When I send a letter there are two objects: me and the letter. When the Spirit of God sends something physical it also is separate as in sending rain. However if God is sending something Spiritual it begs the question as to who it is. In this case the sender and sent are the same Spirit. So why is it a sending at all because God is everywhere? The difference is that God may be there but is not connected to a body until He actually sends His Spirit into the body. That happened with Jesus which is why He is both sender and sent and it happens with us when the Spirit of God is connected to us.

 

[101G]

I believe it raises the question as to what a sending is. When I send a letter there are two objects: me and the letter. When the Spirit of God sends something physical it also is separate as in sending rain. However if God is sending something Spiritual it begs the question as to who it is. In this case the sender and sent are the same Spirit. So why is it a sending at all because God is everywhere? The difference is that God may be there but is not connected to a body until He actually sends His Spirit into the body. That happened with Jesus which is why He is both sender and sent and it happens with us when the Spirit of God is connected to us.

first thanks for the reply, second, you have half of it correct. yes, God is everywhere, and it is he who is coming, in two parts, two returns. you said something without knowledge nor understanding, "The difference is that God may be there but is not connected to a body until He actually sends His Spirit into the body".
no, it's him, the Spirit, God is the one who comes meaning the sent one. is his coming in a two fold return. first in Spirit, by MANIFESTATION of the "GIFTS". and these gifts was poured out on the day of Pentecost. did you not hear the scriptures? John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"
John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
and he did come, on the day of Pentecost.

NOW, in the glorified body, which is yet to happen, he will come and every eye will see him then.

so understand, our Lord Jesus return is in two fold. first in Spirit, (which happen on Pentecost), and in bodily form which is yet to happen. supportive scripture, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

so in his first part of his coming, (in Spirit), he dwells in us, (the manifestation of the Gifts), but his second part of his coming, in (bodily form), he dwells with us, (every eye will see him). after which is the Judgment.

PICJAG.

 

[Terral]

Hi Israel Khan:

Thank you for starting the debate on the Trinity topic. You wrote:

I have been having discussions recently involving the Trinity. Many people have various views regarding the details of it.

I have said that the Trinity is a specific set of ideas. So saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God does not mean that one is a Trinitarian.

Please prepare yourself for an answer that you might not have seen before: The Almighty's (God's) three witnesses are not testifying in Matthew 28:19! Those are the three witnesses of Father (spirit witness), Son (blood witness) and Holy Spirit (water) testifying for the "Word" of John 1:13, 14 and "Heaven" from Genesis 1:1. The Almighty's (God's) three witnesses testify from Revelation 1:8:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is [blood witness] and who was [water witness] and who is to come [spirit witness], the Almighty.” Rev. 1:8.

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained, Nov. 2017, Page 313.

The three witnesses testifying for "The Almighty" include the Lion, Eagle and Bullock from Revelation 4:7 where the "third creature" with the "face like that of a man" is Christ.

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained, Nov. 2017, Page 320.

Stand with John in the center of Figure 3 (Kingdom of This World) and look through the "Kingdom of His Beloved Son" (Heaven; Fig. 2) into God's Infinite Realm (Kingdom of God, Fig. 1) and you can see the three living creatures (Three Witnesses of the Almighty) and Christ (Fig. 2) having the "Face of a Man."

The reason why I say this is because James White says that the Trinity is a specific set of beliefs and the various councils came to official conclusions from what I have read.

The question I would like Trinitarians and those who know church doctrine and history to answer is this:

In order for one to be a Trinitarian, must they have specific beliefs about the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit apart from them being God?

I am a hardcore Trinitarian helping people see God's wisdom hidden in plain sight using His three witnesses of spirit, blood and water and know very well that the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) testify for the Word of John 1:1-3 and Heaven of Genesis 1:1. Try to guest where "My Father who is in HEAVEN" gets His name? :0) That's right. Genesis 1:1!

For instance Modalists belief that all three persons are God, yet they aren't Trinitarian. Also I believe there is a difference between the Catholic view and the Greek Orthodox view?

There are thousands of denominations of professing Christians and one truth. There are Trinitarians and all kinds of ideas and definitions of what that really means. Check everything out on the topic and make up your own mind like I did many years ago. :0)

Blessings,

Terral

 

[blü 2]

Hi Israel Khan:

Thank you for starting the debate on the Trinity topic. You wrote:


Please prepare yourself for an answer that you might not have seen before: The Almighty's (God's) three witnesses are not testifying in Matthew 28:19! Those are the three witnesses of Father (spirit witness), Son (blood witness) and Holy Spirit (water) testifying for the "Word" of John 1:13, 14 and "Heaven" from Genesis 1:1. The Almighty's (God's) three witnesses testify from Revelation 1:8:

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained, Nov. 2017, Page 313.

The three witnesses testifying for "The Almighty" include the Lion, Eagle and Bullock from Revelation 4:7 where the "third creature" with the "face like that of a man" is Christ.

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained, Nov. 2017, Page 320.

Stand with John in the center of Figure 3 (Kingdom of This World) and look through the "Kingdom of His Beloved Son" (Heaven; Fig. 2) into God's Infinite Realm (Kingdom of God, Fig. 1) and you can see the three living creatures (Three Witnesses of the Almighty) and Christ (Fig. 2) having the "Face of a Man."


I am a hardcore Trinitarian helping people see God's wisdom hidden in plain sight using His three witnesses of spirit, blood and water and know very well that the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) testify for the Word of John 1:1-3 and Heaven of Genesis 1:1. Try to guest where "My Father who is in HEAVEN" gets His name? :0) That's right. Genesis 1:1!


There are thousands of denominations of professing Christians and one truth. There are Trinitarians and all kinds of ideas and definitions of what that really means. Check everything out on the topic and make up your own mind like I did many years ago. :0)

Blessings,

Terral

I respect your right to believe as seems best to you, but it's simply not factual to say that the bible says those things.

In fact the Trinity doctrine ─ "that God exists in three persons and one substance" ─ doesn't exist till the 4th century CE, long years after the Tanakh and the NT were written.

 

[Terral]

Hi blu2:

Thank you for writing. You wrote:

I respect your right to believe as seems best to you, but it's simply not factual to say that the bible says those things.

Please forgive, but invoking my right to believe something to simply state from a pedestal that the substance of my supported statements is "not factual" is condescending, as if blu2 must see something first in God's Word to issue go-ahead approval to others. Perhaps a good idea for next time would be to "quote >>" from a member's post to actually provide a rebuttal-counterargument for something else using statements supported by Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. Besides, quoting every word of a member's post to claim "it's not factual" is really an opinion based upon nothing. Since we must assume what you mean by "those things," then let's examine what Scripture says about The Almighty (with highlights):

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 1:8.

Let's construct an equation based upon the "Almighty's" statement and then construct an equation based upon the "Word" directly underneath for drawing comparisons:

The Almighty = God Who Is To Come [spirit witness] + God Who Is [blood witness] + God Who Was [water witness].
The Word = My Father who is in Heaven [spirit witness] + Son [blood witness] + Holy Spirit [water witness/Helper].

God's three witnesses testify from Revelation 1:8, while the Word's three witnesses testify from Matthew 28:19. Both The Almighty and The Word have their own three-witness mystery sets who testify as spirit witnesses, blood witnesses and water witnesses, which is why Scripture says [with highlights]:

"He [Christ = The Word = Heaven of Gen. 1:1] is the image [triune = spirit, blood, water] of the invisible God [Almighty = spirit, blood, water], the firstborn [Heaven: Gen. 1:1] of all creation [Heaven and Earth: Gen. 1:1]. For by Him [Word: John 1:1-3] all things [John 1:3] were created, both in the heavens [waters above expanse: Gen. 1:6-7] and on earth [waters below expanse: Gen. 1:6-7], visible [earth] and invisible [heavens], whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things [John 1:3] have been created through Him [the Word] and for Him [the Word]. He [Heaven-Word] is before all things [Earth], and in Him [Heaven-Word] all things [Earth] hold together." Colossians 1:15-17.

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained, Nov. 2017, Page 95

The outer golden-yellow realm is God's Infinite Realm where "you are gods" (Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34-36) and the only realm that is real. The "Realm of the Word" (in red) is "Heaven" from Genesis 1:1 and the "Word" from John 1:1-3 "in" whom the Earth of Genesis 1:1 and "all things" from John 1:1-3 was created. Christ is the Word-Heaven now broken down into three witnesses (F+S+HS) in the same way the Almighty (God) is broken down into His three witnesses of God To Come (spirit), God Who Is (blood) and God Who Was (water) giving Christ the "image of the Invisible God." In fact (in light of your next statement), the Earth of Genesis 1:1 and "all things" from John 1:3 also have the "image of the Invisible God" broken down into the heavens (spirit witness), heaven (blood witness) and earth (water witness) in the same way. For example: God (The Almighty) is speaking in Genesis 1 about making man, saying [my notes],

Then God [God Who Is] said, “Let Us [God To Come, God Who Is, God Who Was] make man [male, seed-offspring, female] in Our image [of "man" = spirit, soul, body], according to Our likeness [spirit, blood, water]; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” God [Almighty] created man [male, seed, female] in His own image [triune], in the image of God [God To Come, God Who Is, God Who Was: Rev. 1:8] He [God] created him ["man"]; male [spirit witness] and female [water witness-helper] He [God] created them ["man"]. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply [producing "seed-offspring" = blood witnesses], and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea [water witnesses] and over the birds of the sky [spirit witnesses] and over every living thing that moves on the earth [blood witnesses].” Genesis 1:26-28.

God Who Is is speaking to God To Come and God Who Is saying "Let Us make man in "Our" Trinity Image," (characterizing) which is the same Trinity image of the Word (F+S+HS) and the same Trinity image of the Earth (heavens, heaven and earth) and the same image of "man" (male, seed, female) and of man himself (spirit, soul, body) represented in the Tabernacle of Moses, the Temple and in God's Word itself:

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained, Nov. 2017, Page 200

Figure 1 shows God's three witnesses of God's Living Word testifying in the 39 books (3x13 = 3 witnesses into the one] Old Testament [spirit witness = spirit of God's Word], the 13 books of the Pauline Epistles [blood witness = soul of God's Word], and the 13 books of the NT Kingdom Epistles [water witness = body of God's Word]. God's Trinity Image and the Word's Trinity Image are on full display in the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple (Fig. 2) where the Court is the water witness-helper, the Holy Place is the blood witness-soul, and the Holy of Holies behind the "Second Veil" is the spirit witness-spirit where the Holy Spirit dwells between the wings of the Cherubim above the Mercy Seat. For those unaware, this website here shows how the Temple and Tabernacle of Moses are laid out in the "image of a man" precisely as explained above.

In fact the Trinity doctrine ─ "that God exists in three persons and one substance" ─ doesn't exist till the 4th century CE, long years after the Tanakh and the NT were written.

We disagree. The Trinity is taught throughout God's Living Word from Genesis 1:1 through Revelation and everywhere in between for those God allows to see His wisdom hidden very much in plain sight using God's three witnesses of spirit, blood and water. Scripture says [my notes]:

"This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and* the three are in agreement." John 5:6-8. NASB.

We are looking at perhaps the most abused verses in the NT by the translators, which those with a knowledge of the ancient Greek will recognize.

1 John 5:8 Interlinear: and three are who are testifying in the earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.

Let's examine the Greek terms ending 1John 5:8 (starting with "and* the three...) and perhaps the lights will start coming on. The Greek says:

"..., kai hoi treis eis to hen eisin," which literally translates, "and these three in to one are." Placing the verb into the correct position for our English language translates verse 8: "...the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three are into the one." So, how is the Trinity taught in Genesis 1:1? Where is the evidence to support my claim? Here we go [my notes]:

"In the beginning God [spirit witness] created the heaven [blood witness] and the earth [water witness]." Genesis 1:1.

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained Nov. 2017, Page 17.

God is the "spirit" witness, Heaven is the "blood" witness and the Earth is the "water" witness helper. All three witnesses here are singularities before being broken down into their own three-witness mystery sets like this:

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained Nov. 2017, Page 20.

Note that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit from Matthew 28:19 appear above "Heaven" in the left-side diagram, which explains how "My Father who is in HEAVEN" (Matt. 7:21) received His name. The "Earth" from Genesis 1:1 was made "formless and void" for God to reconstitute those broken remains into the heavens (waters above the expanse) and earth (waters below the expanse) and "heaven" from Genesis 1:6-8. Therefore (if you are following along), God (God To Come, God Who Is, God Who Was) and the Heaven-Word (Christ = F+S+HS), and the Earth (heavens, heaven and earth) all have the same Trinity "image of a man," whether you see them and hear them testifying throughout God's Living Word or not. The fact that somebody uttered the term "Trinity" in the 4th Century is completely irrelevant to the Trinity Doctrine taught throughout the Holy Scriptures for those who God Himself selects (musterion, #3466 = mystery) to see His wisdom hidden in plain sight.

Blessings,

Terral

 

[blü 2]

Please forgive, but invoking my right to believe something to simply state from a pedestal that the substance of my supported statements is "not factual" is condescending, as if blu2 must see something first in God's Word to issue go-ahead approval to others.

I simply compare what you said to what the Tanakh and NT say.

Perhaps a good idea for next time would be to "quote >>" from a member's post to actually provide a rebuttal-counterargument for something else using statements supported by Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. Besides, quoting every word of a member's post to claim "it's not factual" is really an opinion based upon nothing. Since we must assume what you mean by "those things," then let's examine what Scripture says about The Almighty (with highlights):

Our topic is the Trinity. The question whether the Trinity appears in the bible is easily answered ─ it appears nowhere, not least because, as I said, the doctrine doesn't exist till the 4th century CE, centuries after the books of the NT were written.

You can check this in two ways. First, exactly as you'd expect, Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. He's a messiah (Χριστός, anointed) to the Christians, but he's not anointed by the Jewish priesthood, he's not a war leader or a religious leader, and he doesn't fit the Jewish concept of messiah.

Second, the Trinity requires Jesus to be one of the three 'persons' of God. But each of the five versions of Jesus in the NT nowhere claims to be God, and moreover specifically denies that he's God. For example, Paul unambiguously distinguished between Jesus and God eg:

1 Corinthians 8:6 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

and

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
​

In Mark eg:

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;
[...]
32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;​

In Matthew eg:

Matthew 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
​

In Luke eg

Luke 18:18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
​

and in John eg

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

 

[Muffled]

I respect your right to believe as seems best to you, but it's simply not factual to say that the bible says those things.

In fact the Trinity doctrine ─ "that God exists in three persons and one substance" ─ doesn't exist till the 4th century CE, long years after the Tanakh and the NT were written.

I believe the Trinity is in the scripture. It only gets to be orthodox later.

 

[blü 2]

I believe the Trinity is in the scripture. It only gets to be orthodox later.

The 'persons' of the Trinity are in the NT ─ Jesus as the envoy and servant of God, and the more ambiguous Holy Ghost, which as a conceptual descendant of the Tanakh's ruach would be seen as a manifestation of God himself rather than a distinct 'person'; and of course the Jewish God.

The political problem for the early church was the push to elevate Jesus to God status without making him a separate god (polytheism being associated with paganism). Thus it's interesting to note what the Trinity is not ─ God is not three gods, God is not a partnership with three equal partners, God is not a corporation with a board of three, or with three shareholders, God is not a being divided into three fractions such that, say, ⅓ Father, ⅓ Son and ⅓ Ghost = God.

Instead, the Trinity doctrine declares that each of the three 'persons' of God are distinct but each of them on [his] own is God pure and simple. Since 100% of God + 100% of God + 100% of God = 300% of God = 3 gods, that makes no sense.

The interesting part, then, is that the churches don't deny this. Instead they admit it makes no sense, but rather than say that clearly, they say that the Trinity doctrine is 'a mystery in the strict sense'. And a 'mystery in the strict sense' can 'neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed' ─ that quote is from the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (and you'll find essentially the same thing at the net's Catholic Encyclopedia under 'Trinity' and 'Mystery' in the 'mystery in the strict sense' part). You'll notice that this definition will serve as the definition of a nonsense just as well.

If the Trinity doctrine were correct, then the Jesuses of the gospel prayed to themselves, and the Jesuses of Mark and Matthew died on the cross saying 'Me, me, why have I forsaken me?'; and the titles of Father and Son for persons of the Trinity would make no since, since God has always been a Trinity. (There are other problems as well, such how God can meaningfully be three distinct persons if the three have only one will.)

So it's relevant that each of the five principal Jesuses of the NT expressly denies that he's God.

 

[Iymus]

I have been having discussions recently involving the Trinity. Many people have various views regarding the details of it.

I have said that the Trinity is a specific set of ideas. So saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God does not mean that one is a Trinitarian.

The reason why I say this is because James White says that the Trinity is a specific set of beliefs and the various councils came to official conclusions from what I have read.

The question I would like Trinitarians and those who know church doctrine and history to answer is this:

In order for one to be a Trinitarian, must they have specific beliefs about the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit apart from them being God?

For instance Modalists belief that all three persons are God, yet they aren't Trinitarian. Also I believe there is a difference between the Catholic view and the Greek Orthodox view?

The Trinitarian Creed or Doctrine is a Creed or Doctrine of Men. Moses was not given that creed from MT Sinai and Christ did not preach outside the commandments and spirit of the law.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

 

[sojourner]

The Trinitarian Creed or Doctrine is a Creed or Doctrine of Men

All doctrine is necessarily man-made. Don’t kid yourself.

 

[Iymus]

All doctrine is necessarily man-made. Don’t kid yourself.

So the concept of Love is man made?

 

[sojourner]

So the concept of Love is man made?

Is love a doctrine?

 

[Muffled]

The 'persons' of the Trinity are in the NT ─ Jesus as the envoy and servant of God, and the more ambiguous Holy Ghost, which as a conceptual descendant of the Tanakh's ruach would be seen as a manifestation of God himself rather than a distinct 'person'; and of course the Jewish God.

The political problem for the early church was the push to elevate Jesus to God status without making him a separate god (polytheism being associated with paganism). Thus it's interesting to note what the Trinity is not ─ God is not three gods, God is not a partnership with three equal partners, God is not a corporation with a board of three, or with three shareholders, God is not a being divided into three fractions such that, say, ⅓ Father, ⅓ Son and ⅓ Ghost = God.

Instead, the Trinity doctrine declares that each of the three 'persons' of God are distinct but each of them on [his] own is God pure and simple. Since 100% of God + 100% of God + 100% of God = 300% of God = 3 gods, that makes no sense.

The interesting part, then, is that the churches don't deny this. Instead they admit it makes no sense, but rather than say that clearly, they say that the Trinity doctrine is 'a mystery in the strict sense'. And a 'mystery in the strict sense' can 'neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed' ─ that quote is from the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (and you'll find essentially the same thing at the net's Catholic Encyclopedia under 'Trinity' and 'Mystery' in the 'mystery in the strict sense' part). You'll notice that this definition will serve as the definition of a nonsense just as well.

If the Trinity doctrine were correct, then the Jesuses of the gospel prayed to themselves, and the Jesuses of Mark and Matthew died on the cross saying 'Me, me, why have I forsaken me?'; and the titles of Father and Son for persons of the Trinity would make no since, since God has always been a Trinity. (There are other problems as well, such how God can meaningfully be three distinct persons if the three have only one will.)

So it's relevant that each of the five principal Jesuses of the NT expressly denies that he's God.

I believe this is seen as a common problem that God sends Himself. However that is exactly what is taking place because the Spirit of God does not enter the body of Jesus by osmosis; it is sent into the body.

I believe there is no ambiguity and it is not the same as the ruach. The fact tact that the disciples tended to use the words Holy Spirit rather than the Greek Paraclete does not mean that it is the same thing.

I believe that is fantasy on your part.

I believe God is always 100% God. Jesus is not. He is 50% God and 50% flesh. That does not mean that Jesus does not have 100% God because God can't be separated into parts. The Paraclete is less than 50% God but that varies depending on the ability of a person to receive the Holy Spirit. A person with 50% God is sometimes called a 100 per center ie he has all of God that he can have.

I believe it makes sense for people to state they don't know the nature of something. For a long time the RCC was the orthodox agency for western Europe. I am unorthodox and iconoclastic so it is no mystery to me.

I believe the Trinity may have existed in concept from the beginning but the body of Jesus and believers occurred temporally.

I believe that depends on which definition of person one is using. There are four.

I believe that does not occur in scripture.

 

[Muffled]

Is love a doctrine?

I believe the concept that God is love may be doctrine.

I John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love

 

[sojourner]

I believe the concept that God is love may be doctrine.

I John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love

That doesn’t address the question.

 

[Iymus]

All doctrine is necessarily man-made. Don’t kid yourself.

So doctrine given by Jesus and Commandments of God are seemingly man made based off your words.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

 

[sojourner]

So doctrine given by Jesus and Commandments of God are seemingly man made based off your words.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

The word there is “teaching,” not “doctrine.” There’s a difference between a “teaching” and “doctrine.” Additionally, those words are John’s — not Jesus’. Just because John has Jesus say that doesn’t mean that Jesus actually said it.

 

[blü 2]

I believe there is no ambiguity and it is not the same as the ruach. The fact tact that the disciples tended to use the words Holy Spirit rather than the Greek Paraclete does not mean that it is the same thing.

The common NT expression is τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιοv, where πνεῦμα means 'breath', just as 'ruach' does. And Jesus and his disciples, in the gospels, were all Jews. For that same reason, none of them thought Jesus was God, and each of the five versions of Jesus (Paul's and the four gospels') expressly denies that he's God.

I believe God is always 100% God. Jesus is not. He is 50% God and 50% flesh. That does not mean that Jesus does not have 100% God because God can't be separated into parts. The Paraclete is less than 50% God but that varies depending on the ability of a person to receive the Holy Spirit. A person with 50% God is sometimes called a 100 per center ie he has all of God that he can have.

I respect your right to believe as you think best; and you're no doubt already aware that your view of the Trinity doesn't fit with the view shared by the larger Protestant denominations, the RCC and Orthodoxy. Though yours doesn't sound any more coherent than theirs does.

I believe the Trinity may have existed in concept from the beginning but the body of Jesus and believers occurred temporally.

A trinity may refer to any grouping of three, but The Trinity is much more specific. (So the mention of Jesus, God and the Ghost as a grouping has no resemblance to the Trinity doctrine.) Nothing in church history suggests that the concept of The Trinity existed in biblical times, or that the Trinity doctrine existed before the 4th century CE.

Still, if you're comfortable with it ...

 

[Samael_Khan]

I believe a person is a Christian if he has received Jesus as Lord and Savior. As a Baptist I believe in the priesthood of believers so I expect Jesus to correct a person if He needs to. Since I have Jesus in me then that can happen through me as well.

I had this happen. My views were not in agreement with the denomination's views (not saying which denomination). I said let's look at what the Bible says and they replied what the church says is right is right. End of discussion. I was not thrown out but told not to express my views so I left because I wasn't interested in being muzzled.

A different church non-denominational but Baptist in background reviewed what I had to say. They let it be what it was and I continued to attend.

If certain people do not want to scrutinize their understanding of the Bible then there is a problem with them. It is god that you left.