Is there an obligation for a faith believer

[Valjean]

I wish everyone could understand that unfortunatly that is not the case in RF

That's because we in RF have chosen to enter into the discussion.
If we'd wanted to keep it to ourselves we wouldn't post here.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So why bother to air your belief/practice/wisdom on a public discussion forum, if you don't want it questioned or explored?

To discuss with likeminded people like @Truthseeker, and other people from Baha'i faith.

 

[Secret Chief]

To discuss with likeminded people like @Truthseeker, and other people from Baha'i faith.

Do you distinguish between the discussion and the debate forums? I would hope the supposed difference is adhered to. If you post an OP on a religious topic in a debate forum you will obviously get challenged in a manner you may not welcome.

 

[MikeF]

As I understand it, @Seeker of White Light believes in individually finding God in an individual sense. Thus there is no one absolute objective truth. There is an objective absolute God in his belief system, but that is faith and all our individual ways are not absolute or objective.
As a cognitive, moral and cultural relativist I believe in a similar sense about God. If there is a God, there is no single absolute objective way to God.

So the referenced God wants each individual to create the belief system that best fits that individual intellectually and emotionally? There are no universal expectations or requirements of this God?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you distinguish between the discussion and the debate forums? I would hope the supposed difference is adhered to. If you post an OP on a religious topic in a debate forum you will obviously get challenged in a manner you may not welcome.

Yes, i do understand the difference, but topics i wish to truly discuss would be better off in dir, but even there non believers get access. Something i find strange.

I am not afraid to stand up to my belief, but find no enjoyment in discussing in "defence mode"
I wish to discuss freely with likeminded, but no other person seeking sufi path are here. So Baha'i is the closest to my own belief.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So the referenced God wants each individual to create the belief system that best fits that individual intellectually and emotionally? There are no universal expectations or requirements of this God?

The teaching comes from God, not from humans.

 

[Secret Chief]

Yes, i do understand the difference, but topics i wish to truly discuss would be better off in dir, but even there non believers get access. Something i find strange.

I am not afraid to stand up to my belief, but find no enjoyment in discussing in "defence mode"
I wish to discuss freely with likeminded, but no other person seeking sufi path are here. So Baha'i is the closest to my own belief.

I appreciate that. The same with zen, but I don't really feel a need for discussion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I would say that the burden of proof upon a faith believer would depend upon the context and location of the statement.

If one was merely stating what one believed, no such burden is needed. If one tries to states one's beliefs as facts, then there is often a burden of proof. So I am not going to say that there never is a burden of proof or that there always is a burden of proof. My answer is "It depends"..

 

[Nimos]

You dont measure spiritual wisdom against others, only toward ones own past.

But that is what im trying to explain to you. When you write this:

So non believers, if you want the real answers from religious scripture, you better start practicing, because there are no short cuts to gain wisdom from scriptures, one has to practice it every day to gain wisdom and deeper understanding.

Then that doesn't really make sense, because how do you know that you have spiritual wisdom, let alone that others or anyone for that matter can obtain it then. How do you know that what you experience is spiritual wisdom and not just knowledge about the scriptures?

For instance, I have read the bible and as an atheist I didn't feel any spiritual enlightenment from it. However another person might read it and find deep meaning and comfort in the words of Jesus etc. Did this person obtain spiritual wisdom or not? How do you tell that or measure it, if you don't compare it to anything?

 

[Spirit of Light]

If one was merely stating what one believed, no such burden is needed. .

This is what i do, only explain my personal understanding, and belief.

Nobody have to agree with it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So the referenced God wants each individual to create the belief system that best fits that individual intellectually and emotionally? There are no universal expectations or requirements of this God?

Yeah, but in general most I have met tend to do a variation of Love, Light and Life.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But that is what im trying to explain to you. When you write this:

So non believers, if you want the real answers from religious scripture, you better start practicing, because there are no short cuts to gain wisdom from scriptures, one has to practice it every day to gain wisdom and deeper understanding.

Then that doesn't really make sense, because how do you know that you have spiritual wisdom, let alone that others or anyone for that matter can obtain it then. How do you know that what you experience is spiritual wisdom and not just knowledge about the scriptures?

For instance, I have read the bible and as an atheist I didn't feel any spiritual enlightenment from it. However another person might read it and find deep meaning and comfort in the words of Jesus etc. Did this person obtain spiritual wisdom or not? How do you tell that or measure it, if you don't compare it to anything?

Because i have a strong faith in the teaching from God.

As an atheist, you lack the faith in God, so no wonder wisdom did not arise when you read the bible, you only saw the words,not the true message within your heart

 

[Subduction Zone]

This is what i do, only explain my personal understanding, and belief.

Nobody have to agree with it.

I won't say that you have to support your claims here, but there was a thread that you were on that would require such support as shown by the title. Time and place can make a difference.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because i have a strong faith in the teaching from God.

As an atheist, you lack the faith in God, so no wonder wisdom did not arise when you read the bible, you only saw the words,not the true message within your heart

I don't think that accusing others of not having wisdom is wise. That does bring a person into the area where one's beliefs would need to be properly justified.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't think that accusing others of not having wisdom is wise. That does bring a person into the area where one's beliefs would need to be properly justified.

What i said is, if a person do not have faith in the spiritual teaching they reading, how do youthink they will gain anything from it?

 

[Subduction Zone]

What i said is, if a person do not have faith in the spiritual teaching they reading, how do youthink they will gain anything from it?

I am not going to debate here. I was giving my two cents worth when one needs to support their beliefs and when they do not. No need here, but there may be a need elsewhere.

 

[Psalm23]

True -- only a few of us are interested in exploring belief and epistemology by posting our thoughts publicly, on RF.

I tend to enjoy posting my thoughts on religion. Sometimes I decide not to post.

 

[Nimos]

Because i have a strong faith in the teaching from God.

As an atheist, you lack the faith in God, so no wonder wisdom did not arise when you read the bible, you only saw the words,not the true message within your heart

In that case, that would be a claim, which might be what your atheists friends is referring to. Either your claim is that one have to read the scriptures with a certain mindset or you are claiming that one need a certain interpretation of the words for them to have spiritual meaning. Yet, as I just said these things requires demonstration, how do you know that your/ "the believer" way of reading these things result in spiritual wisdom?

Also in regards to what you wrote here, your answer to my question earlier:

Lets say I started practicing the same teachings as you, right here and now.

Someone comes along and ask us which of us have the most wisdom about it?

What would your answer be to that?

Your answer should be that you have the most wisdom, because clearly I have read or practice the teachings wrong from what you wrote here.

And to me that is where you and others run into problems whenever spiritual knowledge or wisdom is claimed. Because I haven't seen any demonstration from anyone that they have any form of spiritual knowledge or even what it is suppose to be.

And my guess is that this is the same issue that those you spoke with have, because you ultimately claim that you have this wisdom, yet unable to demonstrate it. For me, I think a lot of believers believe they have a spiritual connection with the divine, but again. So far I haven't seen any demonstration of it.
And as you can see here, it doesn't exactly take a lot of back and forth, before you have no issue with claiming something about me and my way of doing/reading things. Which you find to be "incorrect" in regards to obtaining spirituality, yet you don't seem to find it an issue in regards to demonstrating set knowledge about spirituality, when I raise that as an issue?

 

[Spirit of Light]

In that case, that would be a claim, which might be what your atheists friends is referring to. Either your claim is that one have to read the scriptures with a certain mindset or you are claiming that one need a certain interpretation of the words for them to have spiritual meaning. Yet, as I just said these things requires demonstration, how do you know that your/ "the believer" way of reading these things result in spiritual wisdom?

Also in regards to what you wrote here, your answer to my question earlier:

Lets say I started practicing the same teachings as you, right here and now.

Someone comes along and ask us which of us have the most wisdom about it?

What would your answer be to that?

Your answer should be that you have the most wisdom, because clearly I have read or practice the teachings wrong from what you wrote here.

And to me that is where you and others run into problems whenever spiritual knowledge or wisdom is claimed. Because I haven't seen any demonstration from anyone that they have any form of spiritual knowledge or even what it is suppose to be.

And my guess is that this is the same issue that those you spoke with have, because you ultimately claim that you have this wisdom, yet unable to demonstrate it. For me, I think a lot of believers believe they have a spiritual connection with the divine, but again. So far I haven't seen any demonstration of it.
As you can see, it doesn't exactly take a lot of back and forth, before you have no issue with claiming something about me and my way of doing/reading things. Which you find to be "incorrect" in regards to obtaining spirituality, yet you don't seem to find it an issue in regards to demonstrating set knowledge about spirituality, when I raise that as an issue?

My wisdom is not very high.
I do not claim what other have or dont have. I only speak from my understanding from the years of spiritual practice i have done my self.

But since its a personal "awakening" to wisdom that happen to me, no matter what I share, it is personal experience and for othets it is not going to mean much.

 

[Nimos]

My wisdom is not very high.
I do not claim what other have or dont have. I only speak from my understanding from the years of spiritual practice i have done my self.

But since its a personal "awakening" to wisdom that happen to me, no matter what I share, it is personal experience and for othets it is not going to mean much.

It's not about you personally and whether you have or don't have spiritual wisdom. Because who should make that judgement? Are there any person on Earth, which you would consider able to judge your level of spiritual wisdom?

You see the difference between that and my example earlier with a math teacher? Its very easy to judge the teacher's knowledge about math or a historian's knowledge about a history period, because we can measure it against something. Whether that is someone else's knowledge or simply against what evidence are available.

So with that in mind, it should be somewhat obvious that whenever we are talking about personal "journeys" or knowledge then we can't do this judgement. So the moment you claim that person A (believer) can obtain spiritual knowledge but person B can't (Me/atheists), then you ought to be able to demonstrate it or give a good argument for why or how you know this?