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Featured Is there an obligation for a faith believer

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Seeker of White Light, May 14, 2022.

  1. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    From discussion with some very few non believers of religion or spiritual practice, it seems like they see it as an obligation for the faith believers to explain in details "Why, How and in what way" the faith believers come to their personal belief.

    But say its an obligation to explain to anyone who just going to refuse the answer as wishful thinking, falacy, or other negative intepretations done by the non believer.

    The way a believer become more and more firm in their belief is to practice the teaching for years.

    So non believers, if you want the real answers from religious scripture, you better start practicing, because there are no short cuts to gain wisdom from scriptures, one has to practice it every day to gain wisdom and deeper understanding.

    If a faith believer just give you an answer, you yourself has not gained anything at all.
     
    #1 Seeker of White Light, May 14, 2022
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
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  2. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    It's a bit like science. You have to study it for quite some time to gain true insight. The problem both science and religion have is to interest people to study in the first place. You have to make a case in a short advertisement and hope that it is convincing.
     
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  3. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    A post I read earlier on another forum...

    "I don't go to church as some of you do but I do pray every morning that I wake up. God is greater than politics, facebook, twitter, Trump, Biden, Musk, etc.
    I don't buy into the whole game or let it all bring me down.
    What happens is out of my hands.
    Sharing positive things does a lot more than sharing negative things. What you share has influence on others."

    How can I argue with that?
     
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  4. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    The convincing part is to live by the book, to show that spiritual lifestyle is a good way of life, no need to prove by words at all. Living by example is a good way to teach others.
     
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  5. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    I fully agree with this.
     
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  6. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Northern scum

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    "to make someone feel morally or legally forced to do something"

    - obligate

    I don't think anyone should feel under any obligation. If you think/believe X, if somebody says they do not accept X as true, it is one's free choice as to whether or not to engage, whatever the subject. This forum is a place for exchanges, but one is not compelled in any specific case to engage or attempt to persuade.

    Feel free not to respond :)
     
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  7. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    I am not afraid of r3sponding to good replies :)
    The replies i see less value to reply to are the ones where i know that no matter what i reply, nonese are the reply back to me.

    People are free to believe or disbelieve anything they want.
     
  8. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    I will answer as from my tradition of a faith believer. Since I am a strong philosophical skeptic, it means that I have no knowledge. I only have faith and beliefs, that work for me.
    Now non-religious humans are in effect just that, non-religious. So it is not that we are non-religious, it is our actual positive claims of how the everyday world works, that matters.
    So where it is that some of my fellow non-religious humans take something for granted, that can be done differently.
    So here it is in general terms for the actual difference between 2 versions of the everyday world.
    They believe that everything must match reality, but that, they believe that, is not a part of reality.
    So here is their "religious or spiritual" trick. This is their functional belief in regards to reality as per: the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
    They believe, they can do everything with reference to actual things. They can't, but you can't convince them of that, because they in effect operate on the belief that only that independent of the mind is real, but that it is real is dependent on the mind.

    But my world is mental, social and natural and that mental is your religious and spiritual.

    So their demand is that you individual must be like they are individually, because their individuality is how the world works for us all. In effect some of them are no different than some religious people. My understanding of how to cope is the universal, objective, absolute standard for all human.
     
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  9. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    To me, this is a great answer, thank you @mikkel_the_dane
     
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  10. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Northern scum

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    If that includes appreciating opera I'm out of here.
     
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  11. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Not an obligation, it just seems irrational to believe something entirely unevidenced, especially when it leads one to deny other, well-evidenced beliefs. :confused:
    Just what is this wisdom based on?
    So you have to believe it before you can understand it? Isn't that sort of putting effect before cause; the cart before the horse?
    But, historically, when has this ever produced a consistent answers? People have been 'practicing' for thousands of years, yet today there are more religious differences, and more interpretations, than ever before. :shrug:
    No, I suppose not -- but a faith-based answer is unevidenced by definition, so does the believer have anything non-imaginary to impart to begin with?
     
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  12. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    You are doing an evaluation, which is not based on facts. You evaluate a human behaviour as irrational, but that is an evaluation in you. Learn the fact value distinction before claiming facts are all that matters, bécause that facts matter, is not a fact as you use fact.

    In other words learn to spot when you do a first person evaluation of what matters and stop treating that as in fact an objective fact.
     
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  13. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    First one become a seeker, then one gain faith in the teaching, and when practicing the teaching, one attain wisdom from the teaching that mirrors ones own life, with both happiness and sorrow showing according to what is needed to be realized in a spiritual persons life.

    Two people from same faith can experience the teaching very different according to what they need to work on spiritually in their life.
     
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  14. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    A fun fact. One of my Christian friends consider me a seeker. So we have that in common, we just do it differently as it works differently for as we are different individuals.
     
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  15. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    Every seeker are different :) there are many roads to the answer one seeking
     
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  16. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    Let me give you an example of this approach at it´s worst:

    Lots of missionaries have travelled for centuries all over the globe and conversed local cultural tribes. Natural tribes which belief system was firmly founded in the rhythm of nature on and above the Earth. Lots of these native tribes are destroyed and their cultural knowledge and practice is lost.

    Look at the modern world today? Where has the conventional religious interpretations led humans and the Earth itself today?

    "Belief" is OK, but it has to be practically connected to everything inside and outside the human mind and to the well-being of nature itself and is entanglement of life connections.

    This understanding was what the missionaries should have learned BEFORE they got busy with their self-indulgent travelling - and at last they should have when they met the natural tribes.

    IMO an overall "belief" comes from being connected to nature itself and to a group of like minded persons who have "God" (and "Goddess") to represent the very factual principles of creation everywhere this creation can be observed.

    Initially, "religion" wasn´t a "dogmatic belief system" but a natural knowledge of everything.
     
  17. Ella S.

    Ella S. Ex-Gnostic

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    No, I do not think that you have an obligation to explain what you believe and why to anyone who asks.

    I think our only obligation is to society as a whole. As long as you are doing your part to make your community a better place and to help those around you, and your beliefs do not impede this, then they do not matter.

    There is an issue with some people who believe that they are helping others (due to some sort of religious belief) when they're actually hurting them, such as when Christians try to force their gay loved ones to undergo conversion therapy out of fear for their immortal soul, but I haven't seen you tread into territory like this in any of your posts that I've read.

    That said, this is also a discussion forum, so people are probably going to ask.
     
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  18. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    This still puts belief before evidence. What is it a seeker seeks, if not evidence on which to base a belief later?

    "...according to what they need to work on?" Are we talking about a psychotherapeutic modality, or ontological truth?
     
  19. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I see no obligation. You can believe whatever you want.

    However. When a believer attempts to impose their belief on others i think the believer is obligated to provide reasons to even consider thinking about their particular faith.

    You should also remember that many non believers (me include) were once believers and from what i can tell, actually understand and know more about scripture than the majority of believers.
     
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  20. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    Faith before evidence
     
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