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Featured Is there an afterlife?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Leonides, Apr 1, 2018.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Very interesting question ^above^.
    I hope Revelation 7:9 helps shed light on the answer because that verse brings to our attention that the new cleansed Earth has a ' great multitude ' or a ' great crowd ' of people surviving the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
    A great crowd which No man can number. To me that large or great amount of people means many more than 8 survivors.
     
  2. Reaper

    Reaper Ave Satanas

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    I believe there is. I believe personally that one goes to Valhalla or Hel after death depending on what they do in this life, and neither place is 'bad', just different.
     
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  3. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Do you know what tribulation that is,
    in Revelation 7:9,14 ?
    What tribulation is that ?

    In the book of Revelation there is two Tribulations. But which is which ?

    You have the tribulation of God.
    And you have the tribulation of the Antichrist.
    But which is which ?

    In Revelation when it makes mention of
    ( great tribulation) Revelation does not say that it's the (Greatest tribulation.)

    Therefore the tribulation being made mention of in Revelation 7:9,24, is not the Greatest tribulation.

    Therefore the tribulation of the flood of Noah's, still stands, As only 8 people were saved.
    Seeing the tribulation of Revelation 7:9,14
    Has a great multitude saved versus 8 people saved.

    So you have only 8 people saved
    And you have a great multitude, The flood of Noah's, still as being the worse tribulation.

    If you have 8 people saved.
    And you a multitude of people saved

    The flood of Noah's is still the worse tribulation.

    Let's say, you have 1000 people in one boat

    And you have a 1000 people in another boat.
    Now both boats, are sinking, and out the first boat you have only 8 people saved.

    And out of the other boat you have all 1000 people saved.
    So which boat had the worse tribulation?

    The one which only 8 people were saved.
    Or the one that all 1000 people saved.
     
  4. JustWondering

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    Jesus knew his teachings would divide people against each other and said as much. After looking into it, Paul is the one teaching to avoid and reject those that aren't good Christians. So Jesus didn't exactly teach such a thing but Paul did and it's in the good book. So what now? Follow Jesus's example in loving others as yourself even if they are sinners ignoring Paul's teachings or ignore Jesus's teachings to follow Paul's instructions? Yea, the bibles a mess.

    The story of the Rich man and the beggar was to warn of the punishment (hell) to come for those who weren't generous and empathic to their fellow man. Jesus spoke of Hell numerous times. Matthew 25:46 quite clearly says that there will be everlasting punishment. This new fad of trying to twist the bible into backing a belief that a hell where people are in eternal torment doesn't exist is in vain. The bible doesn't back your position.
     
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  5. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what your talking about, Jesus taught to avoid false Christians in
    Matthew 24:5

    What makes you think that people would be in eternal torment.

    The story of the Rich man and the beggar, Was to show people, That there is no communicating with those that haved died Nor can those that haved died communicate with us.
    That there's a Great Gulf fixed between us and them. Luke 16:26
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Those of 1 Corinthians 5:10-13 is about Christians who give up their Christianity for fleshly desires as example at 1 Corinthians 5:1. One can Not remain a Christian and practice what is Not Christian. By Not having association with such a person one hopes that person will decide to come back to the congregation by giving up what is Not a Christian practice. In other words, to Not associate with such a person is for a loving purpose showing Christians can Not approve of such wrongdoing and still remain a Christian. ( Christendom is full of immoral people who are in good standing and thus created a watered-down non-biblical life style as being biblical when Not biblical ).

    Please keep in mind that biblical hell is just the stone-cold grave for the un-conscious dead.
    Can you think of anyone righteous who at death went to biblical hell __________
    According to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 the day righteous Jesus died he went to hell.
    KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire and that put the flames in hell.
    Jesus taught sleep in death as we can read at John 11:11-14.
    Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures that also teach sleep in death:
    - Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5,10
    Daniel looked forward to being awakened from death's sleep Not death's flames - Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13.

    I find the ' everlasting punishment ' of Matthew 25:46 is the ' everlasting destruction ' found at 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
    Remember Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' Not roasted forever.

    Also, I find there is a difference in the definition of ' torment ' and 'torture' .
    To me the un-biblical teaching of eternal fire is more like torture than torment.
    In Scripture, a tormentor was a jailer at Matthew 18:34,30 and Not a torturer.
    Even wicked sinner Satan will be 'destroyed' by Jesus according to Hebrews 2:14 B.
    Doesn't biblical hell come to a final end ______
     
  7. JustWondering

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    The rich man complained about being in pain

    Matthew 24:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

    Can we at least agree that the bible isn't very concise on this matter? Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this disagreement at all, right?
     
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  8. JustWondering

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    So, shun them because they don't believe as you do. Just as I said.

    Yet Jesus talks of hell fire and people suffering in hell, there is at least one verse that speaks of eternal punishment, not destruction. I don't see the bible conclusively supporting one view over the other personally. That's one of the problems with the bible though, you can construct arguments using it so support almost anything. In the end, the bible doesn't seem like a reliable enough book to base my beliefs on.
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Do you understand, What is ment by
    ( Everlasting Punishment ? )

    To be cast into Everlasting Punishment,
    The wicked are gone, never to exist again.

    It's like taking paper and sitting it on fire, never to exist again.

    Once God cast the wicked into the lake of fire, They are gone back into non-existent, As they have never existed.

    To the wicked it will be like a everlasting Punishment, But it's not an everlasting Punishment, Once the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, Their burnt up, never to exist again.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Jesus did Not shun tax collectors or even immoral people but taught them God's moral standards if they wish to gain everlasting life. Only Christians who then took up an immoral lifestyle were ' shunned ' with the purpose to keep the congregation morally clean, and that the immoral person would give up their immoral lifestyle and return.

    In English Bible's Jesus talks of hellfire. That English word hellfire was translated in the King James Version from the word Gehenna. Gehenna (hellfire) was Not a forever burning place. Gehenna (hellfire) was a garbage pit where things were destroyed forever and Not kept burning forever. So, Gehenna stands for: destruction.
    If something is thrown into a fireplace what is left is: ashes.
    Ashes can't be re-constructed, can't be glued back together to form the original. Just gone.
    What verse do you have in mind about Jesus teaching there is suffering in biblical hell _________
    In plain English Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be destroyed forever as in annihilated Not roasted.
    The choice then would be: everlasting life or everlasting destruction for the wicked.

    I find at Revelation 20:13-14 that biblical hell comes to a final end.
    After everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' (resurrected) out of hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell. So, the Bible's hell is a temporary place.
    Since the 'dead know nothing' (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10) then Jesus is right about about the condition of the dead being in a ' sleep-like ' ( Not a suffering-like ) state just as Jesus teaches at John 11:11-14.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the symbolic ' rich man ' is part of Jesus' illustrative story found at Luke 16:19.
    That symbolic rich man was clothed with fine clothing and rich foods.
    Since Jesus was addressing the well-off covetous Pharisees mentioned at Luke 16:14 then the Pharisees make up that composite symbolic ' rich man '.

    The punishment of Matthew 25:40-46 is for the haughty ' goat-like ' people at the soon coming ' time of separation' to take place on Earth. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 equates everlasting punishment with everlasting destruction.
    That is in harmony with what is found at Psalms 92:7 that the wicked will be destroyed forever.
    Destroyed, Not by burning, but destroyed, according to Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16, by the executional words from Jesus' mouth. No fire just words.
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    With all due respect, evidence does not create reality. So I might have no evidence thata guy robbed my house, but in reality that guy still robbed my house.

    There is a good reason that God has not provided proof of the afterlife or revealed much about the afterlife. The reason is so we will lead a good, caring and fruitful life, wherever possible helping fellow humans and not harming our planet. We are not supposed to be thinking about the afterlife, but if we knew what it is like we would cease to have any interest in this life. That is one reason we are not told more about it. The other reason is that we could never understand it because it is so different than this life.
    Good for you. According to my religion we should not do anything that we do in hopes of heaven. Since I believe in God, I do what I do for God, but what God wants me to do is lead a good, caring and fruitful life, wherever possible helping fellow humans and not harming our planet.

    What I know about the afterlife only makes me want to live a better life here because I know what I do and become is all that I will take with me.

    I am a kind of strange believer because I do not want to live forever in some strange dimension I know nothing about. :eek: I suppose exotic vacations can be nice, but I am not much for travel anymore. I guess I should trust God and what my religion teaches about how glorious the afterlife will be, but since I cannot imagine it all I can think is that it will be more of the same suffering I have endured here. Thinking about living forever as I have lived here is downright frightening. Sometimes I would prefer to believe in no afterlife at all, if I could. :oops:
     
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  13. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    I would suggest that the various items missing suggest there has been a robbery. There may not be sufficient evidence to name the culprit but a robbery has definitely taken place.

    But surely, if we had evidence for the afterlife, more people would accept God and follow his rules to ensure their place in this afterlife he promises.
    I am very pleased that you are so confident about what awaits you after death.

    So we are singing from the same hymn sheet, we both treat life, others and the planet with respect. The difference is, I do not expect a reward for doing so but you hope for a reward.
     
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  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    True, but let’s say there was no evidence that anyone had been there. The fact is that he has still been there even if he did not steal anything and left no evidence. That is what I was getting at. :)

    But that brings up an interesting point. There is evidence that God has been here because the Messengers God sent are evidence that God has been here, just like a broken window is evidence that a burglary has occurred. It is possible that the Messenger was not a Representative of God, just like it is possible that the window got broken some other way. That is why we investigate to determine what really happened. Was He really a Messenger of God or just a false prophet?
    You are right; if we had proof of an afterlife then people would accept God and be more obedient to God in order to secure their place in the afterlife. But God does not want people to accept Him and be obedient for a reward in the afterlife; God wants them to do that because they choose to because it is the right thing to do. God also gave us something to go on by revealing that there is an afterlife; so even though we do not have the actual proof, most believers believe that.

    I am confident that there is an afterlife, but still unsettled about the whole idea. :oops:
    I do not do what I do for the reward, but it is true that because I believe there is a reward it is hard to separate what I do from what I believe. Since you do not believe in an afterlife, we can know that what you do is not for a reward. According to my beliefs, God takes good deeds and pure motives into consideration. :)
     
  15. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    But that's not a robbery, maybe trespass but nothing else!

    "It is possible that the Messenger was not a Representative of God..."
    I'd say it is probable not possible.

    How do you know god doesn't want people to accept him and be obedient ...?

    I certainly do not want heaven as it is described. It sounds awful!! Full of goody goodies all worshipping this god. I can't imagine anything worse, eternal fire is preferable.

    I refer you to my previous answer, no matter how good I am, I do NOT want heaven - I want to be with rock stars, rebels, people who go to bars, etc. I can think of nothing worse that a place full of evangelical Trump supporters!!!!!!
     
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  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    But not impossible. ;)
    God does want people to accept Him and be obedient, but not for a reward in the afterlife; God wants them to do that because they choose to because it is the right thing to do.
    Where did you get the idea that is what heaven will be like? It won’t be anything like that. :oops:
    It won’t be anything like what you are thinking. Take my word for it...:rolleyes:
     
  17. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    What kind of afterlife can one reasonably expect?

    Can anybody carry on without the five senses of the body.

    Based on all earthly and astronomical observation there is no place to go.

    You would have to hope for something uncaused, eternal, and outside of space and time to reasonably expect an afterlife.

    How do you logically reason such a place existing?

    First cause? Big bang, the very beginning of it all? And what caused that beginning?

    Is there motion without time?

    Is there an unconditioned reality out there?

    What is necessarily existing for there to be an afterlife?
     
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  18. JustWondering

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    As I've said it can be interpreted different ways. The traditional way is that there is a hell were people are tormented. The interpretation that there isn't a hell where people are tormented is a relatively new development that I suspect was developed to soften the biblical god's image and make him more sellable.
     
  19. JustWondering

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    Unfortunately, some organizations/congregations don't shun people when they should or shun others when they shouldn't. My point was that Jesus knew this was going to happen and taught it anyway.

    As for hell being interpreted as destruction not torment, I think is a relatively new development, because the idea of people being tortured in hell was turning people off of the religion. Traditionally, hell has been taught/referred to as a place of eternal torment.
     
  20. JustWondering

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    Sorry but everlasting punishment is an odd way to say someone will be destroyed. Destruction isn't an ongoing process, if somethings destroyed, it's destroyed.
     
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