Is There a Trinity in the TaNaKh? Things that make me go "hmmm"

[metis]

Did I tell you my son-in-law's last name (and now the last name of my daughter) is Chicken? I will tell you what, that name flies!

Then best not to take them to KFC.

 

[Kenny]

And I think it may show somethig else that I posted not too long ago, namely what about people who lived before Jesus, before Christianity, before Judaism, or in other areas untouched by them? As time has gone on, I more and mofre tend to believe that "God's Spirit" drives the quest for seeking God or Gods.

I personally don't posit that all religions are equal, but it has led me to accept all who seek God(s) as probably barking up the right tree. There's even room for agnostics using this approach because "I don't know" is a legitmate belief all of us likely have had at one time or another, and it's still natural, and actually good to a point, to question. Jesus reconized this when talking with Thomas and the Others.

I'm glad God is in charge and not me!

Acts 10:35 gives me pause to think.. "but in every nation the one who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him."

 

[Kenny]

Then best not to take them to KFC.

LOL... their children work at Chic-Fil-A

My daughter says, the advantage is that if you call on the phone once... they will always remember who you are when you call again.

 

[Kenny]

Here is another "what makes me go, 'hmmmm'"

God speaks to Abraham,
Gen. 22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Certainly it was the angel of the Lord who called out but then he said "By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord"

Angel of the Lord says and then swore by himself "saith the Lord"?

Two but one? One but two? Two Lords? one in the same? One visible and one invisible?

 

[Harel13]

Here is another "what makes me go, 'hmmmm'"

Now that I think about it, why go with a "hmmmm"? Is it not obvious to you, a believer in the trinity, that the Tanakh points to a trinity?

 

[Kenny]

Now that I think about it, why go with a "hmmmm"? Is it not obvious to you, a believer in the trinity, that the Tanakh points to a trinity?

Actually, I am monotheistic. Trying to understand Hashem, obviously, is beyond human comprehension and yet He wills to make Himself known to mankind.

I think of King David who said "Bless the Lord oh my soul and all that is within me, bless His holy name"... and it makes me think that I know that he has a body but mentions his soul and yet, beyond that, all that is within me... could he be referencing the breath of God's Spirit that gave him life to make him a living soul?

I can't help but think when God said, "Let us make man in our image and in our likeness" - and how that might give us a clue on how the "only God", Hashem is trying to reveal Himself to us.

Certainly, in Adam and Eve, all of mankind is God's creation if not sons and daughters.

 

[dybmh]

15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Certainly it was the angel of the Lord who called out but then he said "By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord"

Angel of the Lord says and then swore by himself "saith the Lord"?

I read it a little differently. "By myself I have sworn" are God's words to Abraham. The Angel's mission was to deliver this message. The message begins "By myself, I have sworn". One of the translations I use regularly includes quotation marks to indicate this.

Does that help?

 

[Kenny]

I read it a little differently. "By myself I have sworn" are God's words to Abraham. The Angel's mission was to deliver this message. The message begins "By myself, I have sworn". One of the translations I use regularly includes quotation marks to indicate this.

Does that help?

Can you give me the translation?

 

[Kenny]

Here is another one that gives one pause to consider:

Gen 19:24

24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

It is a little strange to use Lord twice IMO. Hashem rained fire from Hashem. Two Hashems? Or just one but the one visible manifestation and one invisible?

Gen 18: 17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mightynation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

Definitely visible here

A "hmmm" in my view.

Again... who can tell Hashem what He can do and what He can't do? Can we really wrap our mind on who He is?

It is mind boggling for me.

 

[dybmh]

Can you give me the translation?

Sure

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8217/jewish/Chapter-22.htm#v16

 

[Kenny]

I read it a little differently. "By myself I have sworn" are God's words to Abraham. The Angel's mission was to deliver this message. The message begins "By myself, I have sworn". One of the translations I use regularly includes quotation marks to indicate this.

Does that help?

I'm not quite convinced... When a message was sent by God through Gabriel in Luke... the angel never talked as if he was God... he, in essence, just delivered the message.

 

[dybmh]

I'm not quite convinced... When a message was sent by God through Gabriel in Luke... the angel never talked as if he was God... he, in essence, just delivered the message.

Luke?

I thought this thread was about Tanakh?

 

[Kenny]

Luke?

I thought this thread was about Tanakh?

true.... true... but I still don't see where angels talk as if they are God. IMV.

 

[dybmh]

true.... true... but I still don't see where angels talk as if they are God. IMV.

So you're saying it makes more sense in the story for Abraham to receive a blessing from an angel instead of the Lord?

 

[dybmh]

Here is another one that gives one pause to consider:

Gen 19:24

24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

It is a little strange to use Lord twice IMO. Hashem rained fire from Hashem. Two Hashems? Or just one but the one visible manifestation and one invisible?

On this one, I think the repetition makes sense. Essentially, the text is making it clear that the rain is not from a cloud.

 

[DNB]

I don't pretend to understand completely what God can and cannot do or how He can manifest Himself. Within the context of Christian thought, there is just so much that can make one go to a "hmmm.."

Take for example:

Ex 3:2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”

Here we have the angel of the Lord that appeared to Moses and yet the one who spoke was the LORD Himself. A duality of power, it gives the sense of.

Interestingly enough God said "take of your sandals for the place you stand is holy" (paraphrased) - the very same words that were spoken to Joshua to which I assume is the same personage.

Well, in my opinion, i find the interchangeability of certain protagonists can occur when the real character in focus, is lesser than the one that he is being referred to as. That is, if an angel spoke on behalf of God, then it is acceptable to say that God spoke. But if God actually spoke, then we cannot say that an angel did, nor was even present at the time. Thus, I'm somewhat inclined to believe that it was solely the angel that spoke to Moses. Plus, such statements that you cited do not necessitate a duality of power, but merely a cooperation or obedience from a servant (angel), and the Lord (God).

Acts 7:30, 35, 38, 53
7:30. "After forty years had passed, AN ANGEL APPEARED TO HIM IN THE WILDERNESS OF MOUNT Sinai, IN THE FLAME OF A BURNING THORN BUSH.
7:35. "This Moses whom they disowned, saying, 'WHO MADE YOU A RULER AND A JUDGE?' is the one whom God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the help of the angel who appeared to him in the thorn bush.
7:38. "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.
7:53. you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

God is not unfathomable, as we are created in His image ourselves - Be holy, as I am holy. Thus, it is not so much His ontology that eludes us, as we understand power and knowledge, and wisdom. But, it is rather the magnitude of these attributes within God that defy our intellect. In other words, we can still reject unsound or implausible, proposed characteristics of God for as I demonstrated earlier, certain definitions cannot fundamentally be valid. This much we have the prerogative to accept.

 

[Harel13]

Actually, I am monotheistic

I didn't say you weren't...

 

[Kenny]

Well, in my opinion, i find the interchangeability of certain protagonists can occur when the real character in focus, is lesser than the one that he is being referred to as. That is, if an angel spoke on behalf of God, then it is acceptable to say that God spoke. But if God actually spoke, then we cannot say that an angel did, nor was even present at the time. Thus, I'm somewhat inclined to believe that it was solely the angel that spoke to Moses. Plus, such statements that you cited do not necessitate a duality of power, but merely a cooperation or obedience from a servant (angel), and the Lord (God).

Informative...

Acts 7:30, 35, 38, 53
7:30. "After forty years had passed, AN ANGEL APPEARED TO HIM IN THE WILDERNESS OF MOUNT Sinai, IN THE FLAME OF A BURNING THORN BUSH.
7:35. "This Moses whom they disowned, saying, 'WHO MADE YOU A RULER AND A JUDGE?' is the one whom God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the help of the angel who appeared to him in the thorn bush.
7:38. "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.
7:53. you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

LOL I thought we are talking about the TaNaKh - but I am thankful you used it. It gave me pause to think.

Question... I noticed that you omitted 32 " 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold."

Was that God speaking? If not? why? if so? why does it make it seem like it is the angel speaking?

God is not unfathomable, as we are created in His image ourselves - Be holy, as I am holy. Thus, it is not so much His ontology that eludes us, as we understand power and knowledge, and wisdom. But, it is rather the magnitude of these attributes within God that defy our intellect. In other words, we can still reject unsound or implausible, proposed characteristics of God for as I demonstrated earlier, certain definitions cannot fundamentally be valid. This much we have the prerogative to accept.

He certainly is. And thank you for magnifying Hashem!

 

[Lain]

KJV:
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Jonathon Targum:

And the Word of the Lord had caused showers of favour to descend upon Sedom and Amorah, to the intent that they might work repentance, but they did it not: so that they said, Wickedness is not manifest before the Lord. Behold, then, there are now sent down upon them sulphur and fire from before the Word of the Lord from Heaven.

Orthodox Jewish Bible Bershis 19:24 Then Hashem rained upon Sodom and upon Amora gofrit and eish from Hashem out of Shomayim;

It would appear that there are two of which the Jonathon Targum called the second - The Word.

Maybe it wasn't so strange for Jewish John to say:

ESV John 1: 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

God, who is at the Father's side made God known.

Of course, some may disagree... but it makes me go.. "hmmm."

A Jewish author Segal talked about the "Two Powers in Heaven" = He admits to that the Jews believed it in times past.

Of course the Trinity is present there for Christ and His Church (which is from forever, even from Adam) knows it. One of my favorite recognitions of it is in fact Genesis 18, as St. Ambrose and St. Augustine comment on it:

"And God appeared to him [Abraham] by the oak of Mambre, as he sat by the door of his tent at noon. And he lifted up his eyes and beheld, and lo! three men stood before him; and having seen them he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and did obeisance to the ground. And he said, Lord, if indeed I have found grace in thy sight, pass not by thy servant."

St. Augustine: "Do you see that Abraham meets Three but bows down to One?... Having beheld Three, he understood the mystery of the Trinity, and having bowed down to One, he confessed One God in Three Persons."

St. Ambrose: "Although Abraham beheld three, he called out to one, and while keeping a distinction of three persons, yet he called out one Lord, thus honoring the three but signifying one power. For not knowledge but grace spoke through him, and he believed better what he had not learned than we who have been taught. Abraham brought out three measures of a meal but slaughtered one calf, believing one sacrifice sufficient, but a threefold offering; one victim, but a threefold gift."

Consider the icon of the Holy Trinity depicting this event.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I can't think of any reason why you would choose to cite to the Orthodox Jewish Bible or quote from it. You do know, I assume, that no Orthodox, modern, Haredi, or Chasidic, no Conservative, no Masorti, no Liberal, no Reform, no Reconstructionist, no Renewal, no Humanist Jew considers the Orthodox Jewish Bible to be either Orthodox or Jewish.

Did you have a reason for doing so?

I hope that you are not implying that certain Christian groups would stoop to false advertising. According to one article that mentions the work:

"is an English language version that applies Yiddish and Hasidic cultural expressions to the Messianic Bible."

Oy Vey! It does not get much more Jewish than that