Is there a soul?

[JohnG139]

I was brought up Anglican.
The soul, I was taught, lives on after the body dies, and if we behaved morally, it would ascend to heaven, where we would be re-united with God, and our loved ones. We would live in perpetual happiness and peace. If we were immoral, our soul would descend into hell, where we would suffer pain, torture, and eternal damnation. The soul has no substance, but is some form of 'life energy'. There is more to us than just our body, there is our thoughts, emotions, personality, memory, morality, beliefs and values, our consciousness, free will and ability to make judgments and choices. This, I assume is a reasonable statement of what most believers consider to be the soul, and it's destiny.
I find this concept perplexing.
Neither the soul, nor spirits, (ghosts) has ever been detected by any scientific measurements. I realize that this does not prove they do not exist, just that we have not been able to prove they do (in spite of scientific efforts). Modern science has extensively explored forms of energy, and discovered various nuclear forces (which result in energy), kinetic energy, gravitational energy, and electromagnetic energy (all in various forms), all of which are easily detectable.

Even if the soul were some undetected form of energy, how would it detect the soul of our departed loved one? Would this energy form have sense organs? Even if it did, would this energy include some form of brain to process the message from the sense organ? Would it have some stored memory of our loved ones to enable us to recognize them? Sounds far-fetched to me!

Many of our concepts are rooted in, and limited by language. As our language developed, we named objects, foot, arm, shoulder, etc, collectively ‘my body’. We also had a word ‘me’. In language, we seldom, if ever have two words for exactly the same object, only different classes of an object (chair, seat, settee, etc), or highlighting different aspects of an object, thus by having ‘me’ and ‘my body’ there is an intrinsically assumed difference between them. The aspects of the soul mentioned above, ‘thoughts, emotions, personality, memory, morality, beliefs and values, consciousness, our free will and ability to make judgments and choices’ are all the product of our brain functioning. I will admit that this can be regarded as our soul, yet not to it’s continued existence after the brain dies. Could the electrical activity of our brain result in the generation of electromagnetic waves? Quite likely, yet electromagnetic waves have no sense organs, nor CPU.

It seems to me that the whole concept of the soul, Heaven and Hell is much more likely a religious construct designed to coerce moral behavior, and to relieve the suffering we feel over the loss of a loved one.

Heaven is not for the deceased; it is for those of us left behind!



Any comments?

[font=&quot]John[/font]

 

[Neo-Logic]

Neither the soul, nor spirits, (ghosts) has ever been detected by any scientific measurements.

Many aspects of religion, including souls and spirits, were made to evade scientific findings.

Oh you can't see the soul or spirit, just know it's there. Why? Because the book says so, silly!

Where does God exist? In us all, everywhere! You don't need proof to know he exists ... just believe it, even when you can't even minutely prove his existance (except by using the fact that science can't disprove religious theories as a possible argument).

It's "faith"

 

[Cynic]

...and the almighty invisible pink unicorn, you don't need proof that she exists... just believe it, even when you cannot prove her existence...

It's "faith"

 

[may]

I was brought up Anglican.
The soul, I was taught, lives on after the body dies, and if we behaved morally, it would ascend to heaven, where we would be re-united with God, and our loved ones. We would live in perpetual happiness and peace. If we were immoral, our soul would descend into hell, where we would suffer pain, torture, and eternal damnation. The soul has no substance, but is some form of 'life energy'. There is more to us than just our body, there is our thoughts, emotions, personality, memory, morality, beliefs and values, our consciousness, free will and ability to make judgments and choices. This, I assume is a reasonable statement of what most believers consider to be the soul, and it's destiny.
I find this concept perplexing.
Neither the soul, nor spirits, (ghosts) has ever been detected by any scientific measurements. I realize that this does not prove they do not exist, just that we have not been able to prove they do (in spite of scientific efforts). Modern science has extensively explored forms of energy, and discovered various nuclear forces (which result in energy), kinetic energy, gravitational energy, and electromagnetic energy (all in various forms), all of which are easily detectable.

Even if the soul were some undetected form of energy, how would it detect the soul of our departed loved one? Would this energy form have sense organs? Even if it did, would this energy include some form of brain to process the message from the sense organ? Would it have some stored memory of our loved ones to enable us to recognize them? Sounds far-fetched to me!

Many of our concepts are rooted in, and limited by language. As our language developed, we named objects, foot, arm, shoulder, etc, collectively ‘my body’. We also had a word ‘me’. In language, we seldom, if ever have two words for exactly the same object, only different classes of an object (chair, seat, settee, etc), or highlighting different aspects of an object, thus by having ‘me’ and ‘my body’ there is an intrinsically assumed difference between them. The aspects of the soul mentioned above, ‘thoughts, emotions, personality, memory, morality, beliefs and values, consciousness, our free will and ability to make judgments and choices’ are all the product of our brain functioning. I will admit that this can be regarded as our soul, yet not to it’s continued existence after the brain dies. Could the electrical activity of our brain result in the generation of electromagnetic waves? Quite likely, yet electromagnetic waves have no sense organs, nor CPU.

It seems to me that the whole concept of the soul, Heaven and Hell is much more likely a religious construct designed to coerce moral behavior, and to relieve the suffering we feel over the loss of a loved one.

Heaven is not for the deceased; it is for those of us left behind!



Any comments?

[font=&quot]John[/font]

human beings do not have an immortal soul we are a soul , and when we die we have no thoughts what-so-ever
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten ECLLESIASTES 9;5

(Psalm 146:4) His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish

And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man CAME to be a living soul GENESIS 2;7

For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dustECLLESIATES 3;19-20

the soul (ne´phesh; psy·khe´) is the creature itself. The spirit (ru´ach; pneu´ma) generally refers to the life-force of the living creature or soul, though the original-language terms may also have other meanings.

"Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato."—Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35

So the word "soul" as used in the Bible refers to a person or an animal or to the life that a person or an animal enjoys. The Bible’s definition of the soul is simple, consistent, and unencumbered by the complicated philosophies and superstitions of men.

 

[Scott1]

It seems to me that the whole concept of the soul, Heaven and Hell is much more likely a religious construct designed to coerce moral behavior, and to relieve the suffering we feel over the loss of a loved one.

How's it working on ya so far?

 

[robtex]

Good post John hope you introduce yourself in the new members section if you haven't already done so. I would further add that human beings have been examined millions of times by both doctors and scientists. No genetic make-up we have has ever been proposed as a soul and many things religious groups describe as attritbutes of the "soul" are in fact personality traits that are conducted within our brain. If one is to google soul and research there are no science institution with hits and the person that seems to have done the most "research" on it, Ian Stevenson admitts he has never discovered one but suspects they exist.

To further complicate matters the theory of the soul being invisible brings about much skepticsm. Things that are invisible to mankind usually fall under two areas:

1) too far away to see
2) too small to see

The soul is suppose to inhabit the human body so too far away is unreasonalbe at the time it ascends into heaven (leaving the body that housed it) and too small to see directly conflicts with the notion of the soul having a human shape and preportions as presented in the christian and islamic religions.

Things that exist in a gaseous state, which some claim the soul to be, are still detectable by science and by the sense of smell. The proposition currenty by the religious groups that advocate we have souls is that the soul is oderless and unlike other gaseous compounds undetactable with various air testing techniques avaliable.

Theists who subscribe to both evolution and the human soul have yet, to my knowledge prepose what they believe the soul evolved from (as the theory in evolution everything evolved from something more simple) or that it even has the 4 genetic proteins that make up all living things including the most important, carbon which is in all living things.

With this in mind I would like to know why anyone believes they have a soul at all and why one would need to believe in a soul to believe in a god (if that is the case)?

 

[michel]

Well, of course it's all hog-wash; if you can't see it, or measure it, it doesn't exist.

Love doesn't exist, neither do hate, beauty, ugliness, ecstacy, Joy............in fact, the world is not round - it's flat... A confidence trikster has fooled you all into believing the Earth is round Satelite images are a mere construct of people who would have you believe in these myths..........oh, how you have all been taken in! - Just like we 84.8% of humans have been duped into believing in some sort of higher power.........:areyoucra

 

[robtex]

Well, of course it's all hog-wash; if you can't see it, or measure it, it doesn't exist.

Love doesn't exist, neither do hate, beauty, ugliness, ecstacy, Joy............in fact, the world is not round - it's flat... A confidence trikster has fooled you all into believing the Earth is round Satelite images are a mere construct of people who would have you believe in these myths..........oh, how you have all been taken in! - Just like we 97.5% of humans have been duped into believing in some sort of higher power.........:areyoucra

Love and hate, esctacy and joy are emotions....they have been evidenced to exist by neuroscience. Uglyness and beauty are intrepretations and emotional reactions caused by the brain again studied by neuroscience. But since you brought it up, why in your estimation is the soul unable to be measured, unevidenceable yet still believable? In addition can you give us another example of a physcical entity that is completely unmeasurable but is known to exist (besides God). That would help me qualify as to why I should accept things that are invisible and unmeasurable yet exist here on earth.

 

[Watcher]

Wow, I didn't realize that atheists were that much of a minority!
(and michel...the world is obviously banana shaped! don't listen to those foolish scientists! they are minions of satan the devil right up there with santa, the easter bunny, and cupid!!! In fact, they are among the head ministers of Valeneastmas!!! so repeat after me, "the world is banana shaped the world is banana shaped!")

A few thoughts on the topic of souls....
If there is no you, how can you have a soul?
Ok, I know what you're thinking. "What!!! THERE"S NO ME!!!!" Just hold on a second though.
Break yourself down. What are you composed of? Start big if you would like, work your way down from the body, to organ systems, and so on. Sooner or later you will get to elements, and then atoms. Atoms are composed of electrons, protons, and neutrons. Now these, when you break them down are made out of the fundemental particles like quarks (an electron is already a fundemental particle). These supposedly can't be broken down any further. Ok. Now look at something else...your computer...a chair...it doesn't really matter. Break it down. Holy crap. Quarks, electrons and leptons?? Wow. My keyboard is as complex as you are. No offense though. But it's true. Everything is made out of the same substance. So then where do you end and the next thing begins? Where is the line drawn between objects? There is no line! Nothing seperates you and your computer! You are one and the same thing!
So if there is no definite you, and there is no definite me, there is no way that we can have seperate souls. Possibly a universal soul (universal consiousness), but not seperate, individual ones.

 

[JohnG139]

the soul (ne´phesh; psy·khe´) is the creature itself. The spirit (ru´ach; pneu´ma) generally refers to the life-force of the living creature or soul, though the original-language terms may also have other meanings.

If the soul is the creature itself, and presumably continues on after the body dies, how can this be if it is insubstantial? If it is some 'undetectable' energy, how can it recognise other souls? To say that something is indetectible is ubsurd.
Everything, I repeat everything that exists, has characteristics, or properties, and is therefore recognizable and detectable for those properties.
It is inconceivable that something could exist and be devoid of characteristics or properties, therefore, if a soul has independent existance, it cannot be insubstantial, but must consist of matter, or energy.
Sorry, May, but biblical references go no distance in convincing me of anything.

 

[JohnG139]

How's it working on ya so far?

63 years of a great life!
I have lost parents, but that also is life.
My 9 month old grandson was born with a partial extra chromosome 13, will be legally, but not totally blind, and very likely mentally deficient, but that also is life!

 

[JohnG139]

Well, of course it's all hog-wash; if you can't see it, or measure it, it doesn't exist.

Love doesn't exist, neither do hate, beauty, ugliness, ecstacy, Joy............in fact, the world is not round - it's flat... A confidence trikster has fooled you all into believing the Earth is round Satelite images are a mere construct of people who would have you believe in these myths..........oh, how you have all been taken in! - Just like we 84.8% of humans have been duped into believing in some sort of higher power.........:areyoucra

Cheers Michael;
Hope I do not become as cynical as you.

 

[Quiddity]

Love and hate, esctacy and joy are emotions....they have been evidenced to exist by neuroscience.

Really? You have a source. I want to read on it.

~Victor

 

[robtex]

Really? You have a source. I want to read on it.

~Victor

http://www.nine3.com/gnorthoff/Emotions.html

http://www.socialresearchmeathods.net/Gallery/Young/emotion.htm

http://www.medicine.uiowa.edu/adolphs/neuroimaging.html

http://www.brain-dynamics.net/research/cnu_files/cnu_emotion.php

Your turn...find a website showing scientific evidence for the human soul.

 

[Scott1]

63 years of a great life!

So pleased to hear it.... was the realization that humans have no soul helpful in this regard?

 

[JohnG139]

Everything is made out of the same substance. So then where do you end and the next thing begins? Where is the line drawn between objects? There is no line! Nothing seperates you and your computer! You are one and the same thing!
So if there is no definite you, and there is no definite me, there is no way that we can have seperate souls. Possibly a universal soul (universal consiousness), but not seperate, individual ones.

Yes everything made of the same fundamental particles, but not the exact same particles, but different instances of the same kind of particles. The fundamental particles that make up my computer occupy a different portion of 3 dimentional space than do I. There is also 3 dimentional space between us. Objects do have boundaries, (albit hazy when you get down to the level of fundamental particles) so it is silly to maintain that me and my computer are one in the same thing.
OK, we could view the totality of existance as a continuous heterogeneous matrix of electromagnetic energy, with highly concentrated areas of 'particle/waves' which we call quarks, leptons etc, which are organized into larger 'particles' etc, but to describe basic native electromagnetic energy as a 'universal conciousness' is an unwarranted strech! To have conciousness, there must be a being which is concious. I guess we could assume that the being is God, but then we would be saying that everything that exists is nothing more than God's thoughts or conciousness. Would this then be the same as God's soul? Are we all God's soul? It may make a tidy argument, however one that I do not believe is in accord with reality.
I think existance is continuous heterogenious energy/matter organized into seperate objects, and there is no such thing as a soul independant of our body/mind.

 

[JohnG139]

So pleased to hear it.... was the realization that humans have no soul helpful in this regard?

I think neither a help nor a hinderance.
I have strong moral values, to which I believe I have largely adhered, so my life satisfaction arises from this.
My moral guidepost? The situation ethic.
"In Every situation, do the most loving thing"
Not the easiest to apply, but a good guide.
I guess equivalent to the second commandment (of the 2)

 

[Watcher]

There is also 3 dimentional space between us. Objects do have boundaries, (albit hazy when you get down to the level of fundamental particles) so it is silly to maintain that me and my computer are one in the same thing.

There isn't empty space between you and the computer though.
Gases, which also break down into fundemental particles, are there.

but to describe basic native electromagnetic energy as a 'universal conciousness' is an unwarranted strech! To have conciousness, there must be a being which is concious. I guess we could assume that the being is God, but then we would be saying that everything that exists is nothing more than God's thoughts or conciousness. Would this then be the same as God's soul? Are we all God's soul? It may make a tidy argument, however one that I do not believe is in accord with reality.

I never said that there IS a universal consiousness, I just threw another theory out there (hence the word "possible").

 

[Scott1]

I think neither a help nor a hinderance.
I have strong moral values, to which I believe I have largely adhered, so my life satisfaction arises from this.
My moral guidepost? The situation ethic.
"In Every situation, do the most loving thing"
Not the easiest to apply, but a good guide.
I guess equivalent to the second commandment (of the 2)

Wonderful.... wish more lived their lives like this.

Peace be with you.

 

[Ryan2065]

Yes everything made of the same fundamental particles, but not the exact same particles, but different instances of the same kind of particles. The fundamental particles that make up my computer occupy a different portion of 3 dimentional space than do I. There is also 3 dimentional space between us.

Ever think that we are all connected on the fourth dimension? Theoretically there could be a 4th dimensional line that goes through everyone that we cannot see or feel.