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Featured Is there a literal day of resurrection per Quran? If so what is it exactly?

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Link, Feb 17, 2020.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    The Bahais interpretation is the day of Resurrection is not literal and the events described by Muslims regarding it, are misunderstanding what it's really about.

    Baha'allah from what I understand it said Mohammad and his successors were the day of resurrection of Jesus, and Jesus the day of resurrection of Moses, and so and so forth going back, in which there is always a re-newel. So he declares himself as the day of resurrection predicted by Mohammad.

    That said, I will try to prove. There is two days of risings but none of them have anything to do with this concept.

    One is literally the day when the Qaim will rise against all oppressors and whence oppressors will cease, one way or the other and the people face an ultimatum similar to what the people of Noah faced.

    The other day of rising refers to people rising from their graves and coming to life again, and facing their deeds.

    I will try to mental clarity and bring proof of this from Quran and the hadiths are to be seen in context of Quran, and I will bring proof of hadiths to compliment this.

    I think this is an easy way to see the truth as far Islam vs Bahaism goes.
     
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  2. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Salam

    I looked up hadiths concerning days of God, and it seems there is three types:

    "day of Qaim rising, death, and day of judgment"

    "Day of Qaim rising, day of return (raja), and day of judgment"

    "day of Moses defeating Pharaoh, day of rising, and day of judgment"

    It maybe these hadiths are not specifying the exact days of God but examples of days of God. In this, the common feature, is God's control of power. For example concerning the day of judgment, it says "The Controller of the day of judgment" (1:4) in Suratal Fatiha.

    So an example would be when Moses displays miracles, and Pharaoh is over thrown, would be a day of God. This is because God exercises his power and displays his control. The manifest authority of Moses is hence clear and bright.

    The Qaim rising will be similar to Moses' rising, but, it will be on a world scale. In the words of Noah to his son, "there is no refuge today except for who God has mercy/compassion upon".

    Aside from those type of days, there is the greatest and ultimate day, which is the grand last day. This concept when remembering many verses about the same concept, becomes manifestly clear.

    For example Abraham's prayer for himself, believers, and his parents has a suggestion:

    رَبَّنَا اغْفِرْ لِي وَلِوَالِدَيَّ وَلِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ يَوْمَ يَقُومُ الْحِسَابُ {41}
    [Shakir 14:41] O our Lord! grant me protection and my parents and the believers on the day when the reckoning shall come to pass!

    It gives a certain impression. But itself is not sufficient to know what the day of judgment is. It's when you gather all the verses about it that the impression becomes clear.
     
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  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    وَأَنْذِرِ النَّاسَ يَوْمَ يَأْتِيهِمُ الْعَذَابُ فَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا رَبَّنَا أَخِّرْنَا إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ قَرِيبٍ نُجِبْ دَعْوَتَكَ وَنَتَّبِعِ الرُّسُلَ ۗ أَوَلَمْ تَكُونُوا أَقْسَمْتُمْ مِنْ قَبْلُ مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ زَوَالٍ {44}
    [Shakir 14:44] And warn people of the day when the chastisement shall come to them, then those who were unjust will say: O our Lord! respite us to a near term, (so) we shall respond to Thy call and follow the messengers. What! did you not swear before (that) there will be no passing away for you!
    وَسَكَنْتُمْ فِي مَسَاكِنِ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ وَتَبَيَّنَ لَكُمْ كَيْفَ فَعَلْنَا بِهِمْ وَضَرَبْنَا لَكُمُ الْأَمْثَالَ {45}
    [Shakir 14:45] And you dwell in the abodes of those who were unjust to themselves, and it is clear to you how We dealt with them and We have made (them) examples to you.
    وَقَدْ مَكَرُوا مَكْرَهُمْ وَعِنْدَ اللَّهِ مَكْرُهُمْ وَإِنْ كَانَ مَكْرُهُمْ لِتَزُولَ مِنْهُ الْجِبَالُ {46}
    [Shakir 14:46] And they have indeed planned their plan, but their plan is with Allah, though their plan was such that the mountains should pass away thereby.
    فَلَا تَحْسَبَنَّ اللَّهَ مُخْلِفَ وَعْدِهِ رُسُلَهُ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ ذُو انْتِقَامٍ {47}
    [Shakir 14:47] Therefore do not think Allah (to be one) failing in His promise to His messengers; surely Allah is Mighty, the Lord of Retribution.
    يَوْمَ تُبَدَّلُ الْأَرْضُ غَيْرَ الْأَرْضِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ ۖ وَبَرَزُوا لِلَّهِ الْوَاحِدِ الْقَهَّارِ {48}
    [Shakir 14:48] On the day when the earth shall be changed into a different earth, and the heavens (as well), and they shall come forth before Allah, the One, the Supreme.
    وَتَرَى الْمُجْرِمِينَ يَوْمَئِذٍ مُقَرَّنِينَ فِي الْأَصْفَادِ {49}
    [Shakir 14:49] And you will see the guilty on that day linked together in chains.
    سَرَابِيلُهُمْ مِنْ قَطِرَانٍ وَتَغْشَىٰ وُجُوهَهُمُ النَّارُ {50}
    [Shakir 14:50] Their shirts made of pitch and the fire covering their faces
    لِيَجْزِيَ اللَّهُ كُلَّ نَفْسٍ مَا كَسَبَتْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ {51}
    [Shakir 14:51] That Allah may requite each soul (according to) what it has earned; surely Allah is swift in reckoning.
    هَٰذَا بَلَاغٌ لِلنَّاسِ وَلِيُنْذَرُوا بِهِ وَلِيَعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا هُوَ إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ وَلِيَذَّكَّرَ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {52}
    [Shakir 14:52] This is a sufficient exposition for the people and that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is One Allah and that those possessed of understanding may mind.


    The above verses suggest disbelievers would want to follow his Messengers on that day. Another verse, says the proof will be so manifest that day, there will be no room for denial:

    اسْتَجِيبُوا لِرَبِّكُمْ مِنْ قَبْلِ أَنْ يَأْتِيَ يَوْمٌ لَا مَرَدَّ لَهُ مِنَ اللَّهِ ۚ مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ مَلْجَإٍ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَمَا لَكُمْ مِنْ نَكِيرٍ {47}
    [42:47]Respond to your Lord before there comes the day from Allah for which there shall be no averting; you shall have no refuge on that day, nor shall it be yours to make a denial.

    The bold is important, because, we see ultimately, God was always capable of proving himself and his Messengers beyond doubt, but it's been hidden to some degree, the proof, till that day, and will become more manifest during Qaim time, but ultimately, the clearest brightest proof will be on the day where there is no room for denial anymore.

    It's for this reason, the disbelievers, are described through out to want to believe and come back and believe, but they can't. I will focus on this theme first, then we will see aside from that, what the day consists of.
     
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  4. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    Link, I personally do not see we can approach our faith in Allah, in a way that becomes God Word verses God Word. To me that would mean that one has already made a decision as to that Word's meaning and is trying to prove Allah over Allah. One must consider the Quran is its own proof and it is the Quran that proves that Jesus the Christ is a Messenger from God and becomes a complimentary standard to the Bible in Knowing about God.

    History has shown that a Christian will use the Bible verses the Quran method of search, I ask, how fruitful was that method to them? Do they not still see the Quran conflicts with God's Word?

    Thus using the Quran, God's Word, one can show what passages in the are Bible are saying to us.

    This is the same with the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, they will stand on their own Merit as the Word of God and will offer true meaning of past scriptures, or they will fail to do this.

    That the resurrection is a Spiritual Awakening, is shown in many Metephors in all scriptures.

    Thank you for the post, I will enjoy reading the responses and hopefully we can share passages to consider, but I do not see it as one faith verses another.

    Regards Tony
     
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  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    Link, it depends how we want to read that passage in my opinion.

    So let's change what we put in bold:

    [42:47]Respond to your Lord before there comes the day from Allah for which there shall be no averting; you shall have no refuge on that day......

    If we read that aspect and take the warning, then we have a chance to respond to our Lord before the day where there shall be no averting. That would mean we are given a chance to respond before that judgement. Allah is fair and Just and we are always given a chance before we face our judgement.

    Also remember a day of Allah has many different meanings. We are not able to place a time limit on how long mankind will be given a chance, but Baha'u'llah offered;

    "The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody... "

    Regards Tony
     
  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Salam

    Tony, the way Quran talks about the day, it's obviously one and the same day with the day of judgment. It's obviously talking about that same day emphasized in 1:4.
     
  7. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    This verse here, shows, people on the day of judgment wish they followed the Messengers. There also many verses that show the day of judgment is when hell will approach the disbelievers.
     
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  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    وَقُلْ رَبِّ أَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ هَمَزَاتِ الشَّيَاطِينِ {97}
    [Shakir 23:97] And say: O my Lord! I seek refuge in Thee from the evil suggestions of the Shaitans;
    وَأَعُوذُ بِكَ رَبِّ أَنْ يَحْضُرُونِ {98}
    [Shakir 23:98] And I seek refuge in Thee! O my Lord! from their presence.
    حَتَّىٰ إِذَا جَاءَ أَحَدَهُمُ الْمَوْتُ قَالَ رَبِّ ارْجِعُونِ {99}
    [Shakir 23:99] Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back, my Lord, send me back;
    لَعَلِّي أَعْمَلُ صَالِحًا فِيمَا تَرَكْتُ ۚ كَلَّا ۚ إِنَّهَا كَلِمَةٌ هُوَ قَائِلُهَا ۖ وَمِنْ وَرَائِهِمْ بَرْزَخٌ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ {100}
    [Shakir 23:100] Haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.
    فَإِذَا نُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ فَلَا أَنْسَابَ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَلَا يَتَسَاءَلُونَ {101}
    [Shakir 23:101] So when the trumpet is blown, there shall be no ties of relationship between them on that day, nor shall they ask of each other.
    فَمَنْ ثَقُلَتْ مَوَازِينُهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ {102}
    [Shakir 23:102] Then as for him whose good deeds are preponderant, these are the successful.
    وَمَنْ خَفَّتْ مَوَازِينُهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ خَسِرُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ فِي جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدُونَ {103}
    [Shakir 23:103] And as for him whose good deeds are light, these are they who shall have lost their souls, abiding in hell
    تَلْفَحُ وُجُوهَهُمُ النَّارُ وَهُمْ فِيهَا كَالِحُونَ {104}
    [Shakir 23:104] The fire shall scorch their faces, and they therein shall be in severe affliction.
    أَلَمْ تَكُنْ آيَاتِي تُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْكُمْ فَكُنْتُمْ بِهَا تُكَذِّبُونَ {105}
    [Shakir 23:105] Were not My communications recited to you? But you used to reject them.
    قَالُوا رَبَّنَا غَلَبَتْ عَلَيْنَا شِقْوَتُنَا وَكُنَّا قَوْمًا ضَالِّينَ {106}
    [Shakir 23:106] They shall say: O our Lord! our adversity overcame us and we were an erring people:
    رَبَّنَا أَخْرِجْنَا مِنْهَا فَإِنْ عُدْنَا فَإِنَّا ظَالِمُونَ {107}
    [Shakir 23:107] O our Lord! Take us out of it; then if we return (to evil) surely we shall be unjust.
    قَالَ اخْسَئُوا فِيهَا وَلَا تُكَلِّمُونِ {108}
    [Shakir 23:108] He shall say: Go away into it and speak nat to Me;
    إِنَّهُ كَانَ فَرِيقٌ مِنْ عِبَادِي يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا آمَنَّا فَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَا وَأَنْتَ خَيْرُ الرَّاحِمِينَ {109}
    [Shakir 23:109] Surely there was a party of My servants who said: O OUI . Lord! we believe, so do Thou forgive us and have mercy on us, and Thou art the best of the Merciful ones.
    فَاتَّخَذْتُمُوهُمْ سِخْرِيًّا حَتَّىٰ أَنْسَوْكُمْ ذِكْرِي وَكُنْتُمْ مِنْهُمْ تَضْحَكُونَ {110}
    [Shakir 23:110] But you took them for a mockery until they made you forget My remembrance and you used to laugh at them.
    إِنِّي جَزَيْتُهُمُ الْيَوْمَ بِمَا صَبَرُوا أَنَّهُمْ هُمُ الْفَائِزُونَ {111}
    [Shakir 23:111] Surely I have rewarded them this day because they were patient, that they are the achievers.
    قَالَ كَمْ لَبِثْتُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ عَدَدَ سِنِينَ {112}
    [Shakir 23:112] He will say: How many years did you tarry in the earth?
    قَالُوا لَبِثْنَا يَوْمًا أَوْ بَعْضَ يَوْمٍ فَاسْأَلِ الْعَادِّينَ {113}
    [Shakir 23:113] They will say: We tarried a day or part of a day, but ask those who keep account.
    قَالَ إِنْ لَبِثْتُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا ۖ لَوْ أَنَّكُمْ كُنْتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ {114}
    [Shakir 23:114] He will say: You did tarry but a little-- had you but known (it):
    أَفَحَسِبْتُمْ أَنَّمَا خَلَقْنَاكُمْ عَبَثًا وَأَنَّكُمْ إِلَيْنَا لَا تُرْجَعُونَ {115}
    [Shakir 23:115] What! did you then think that We had created you in vain and that you shall not be returned to Us?
    فَتَعَالَى اللَّهُ الْمَلِكُ الْحَقُّ ۖ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ رَبُّ الْعَرْشِ الْكَرِيمِ {116}
    [Shakir 23:116] So exalted be Allah, the True King; no god is there but He, the Lord of the honorable dominion.
    وَمَنْ يَدْعُ مَعَ اللَّهِ إِلَٰهًا آخَرَ لَا بُرْهَانَ لَهُ بِهِ فَإِنَّمَا حِسَابُهُ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِ ۚ إِنَّهُ لَا يُفْلِحُ الْكَافِرُونَ {117}
    [Shakir 23:117] And whoever invokes with Allah another god-- he has no proof of this-- his reckoning is only with his Lord; surely the unbelievers shall not be successful.
    وَقُلْ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ وَارْحَمْ وَأَنْتَ خَيْرُ الرَّاحِمِينَ {118}
    [Shakir 23:118] And say: O my Lord! forgive and have mercy, and Thou art the best of the Merciful ones.




    These verses show people die before the day they are raised and there is barrier until the day people are raised. It also shows people will come to the hell this day and will regret their actions but will not be given a second chance!
     
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  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    إِلَىٰ فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَئِهِ فَاتَّبَعُوا أَمْرَ فِرْعَوْنَ ۖ وَمَا أَمْرُ فِرْعَوْنَ بِرَشِيدٍ {97}
    [Shakir 11:97] To Firon and his chiefs, but they followed the bidding of Firon, and Firon's bidding was not right-directing.
    يَقْدُمُ قَوْمَهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَأَوْرَدَهُمُ النَّارَ ۖ وَبِئْسَ الْوِرْدُ الْمَوْرُودُ {98}
    [Shakir 11:98] He shall lead his people on the resurrection day, and bring them down to the fire; and evil the place to which they are brought.
    وَأُتْبِعُوا فِي هَٰذِهِ لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ۚ بِئْسَ الرِّفْدُ الْمَرْفُودُ {99}
    [Shakir 11:99] And they are overtaken by curse in this (world), and on the resurrection day, evil the gift which shall be given.

    Notice there is a distinction between a curse in this world and on the day of resurrection which Pharaoh and his followers will be given.
     
  10. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Notice on the day of judgment the believers will be rewarded. There is another verse that says it's their day as well. "this is your day that you were promised"
     
  11. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    These verses show that God is driving it but it also reminds "who is the caster", and on this day, no one will accuse a Messenger or Witness from God to be a sorcerer or caster. They will see their power is from God.

    وَوُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ بَاسِرَةٌ {24}
    [Shakir 75:24] And (other) faces on that day shall be gloomy,
    تَظُنُّ أَنْ يُفْعَلَ بِهَا فَاقِرَةٌ {25}
    [Shakir 75:25] Knowing that there will be made to befall them some great calamity.
    كَلَّا إِذَا بَلَغَتِ التَّرَاقِيَ {26}
    [Shakir 75:26] Nay! When it comes up to the throat,
    وَقِيلَ مَنْ ۜ رَاقٍ {27}
    [Shakir 75:27] And it is said: Who is the caster?
    وَظَنَّ أَنَّهُ الْفِرَاقُ {28}
    [Shakir 75:28] And he is sure that it is the (hour of) parting
    وَالْتَفَّتِ السَّاقُ بِالسَّاقِ {29}
    [Shakir 75:29] And affliction is combined with affliction;
    إِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ يَوْمَئِذٍ الْمَسَاقُ {30}
    [Shakir 75:30] To your Lord on that day shall be the driving.
    فَلَا صَدَّقَ وَلَا صَلَّىٰ {31}
     
  12. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    I just saw your thread here. It is a good discussion. I will gradually go through the verses you quoted, as my time permits.


    Let's look at the first verse you quoted.



    [Shakir 14:44] And warn people of the day when the chastisement shall come to them, then those who were unjust will say: O our Lord! respite us to a near term, (so) we shall respond to Thy call and follow the messengers. What! did you not swear before (that) there will be no passing away for you!


    This verse is regarding Manifestation of the Qaim, and here is evidence from a Hadith:


    - عن المناقب * * * [(وأنذر الناس يوم يأتيهم العذاب فيقول الذين ظلموا ربنا أخرنا إلى أجل قريب نجب دعوتك ونتبع الرسل أو لم تكونوا أقسمتم من قبل ما لكم من زوال)] (إبراهيم - 44). أن ظهور المهدي عليه السلام هو الاجل القريب في الآية

    معجم أحاديث الإمام المهدي ع - الكوراني العاملي، الشيخ علي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت



    The thing is, this verse is Not saying ALL people will say "O our Lord! respite us to a near term, (so) we shall respond to Thy call and follow the messengers"

    This is because , when the end time comes, there is no guidance, and many people will feel oppressed as they cannot find a true guidance. Then they will pray God to hasten a near term, meaning, they ask God to send His messengers to guide them and show them the way. These messengers, are the Qaim, and return of Chist. So, God, in these verses is giving had given a warning ahead of time, that humanity would reach to such a state that they ask God for guidance. The following verse follow same subject, which is about Manifestation of the Mahdi, as the Hadith says.

    In our view, this verse is already fulfilled. According to history, in the 19th century, many people in Persia, as well as Christian countries were hoping and expecting the Manifestation of their Promised Ones.

    The last part of this verse "What! were ye not wont to swear aforetime that ye should suffer no decline?"

    I understand "decline", in this verse is an allusion to decline in true believer in Islam. As other Hadithes suggests, at the end time, there will be many Muslims, but only by name!

    I understand this to mean, that the Muslims always thought there is no decline in Islam in terms of guidance and purity of religion. In another words, in this verse, Allah is saying The Muslims at the End Time, pray God to send them guidance, despite they could not believe their religion declines.
     
    #12 InvestigateTruth, Feb 24, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  13. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    This verse is also about Manifestation of the Qaim. This verse is warning humanity, to do good deeds, so, when the Day of rise of Qaim comes, they can recognize the Qaim, and believe in Him, so, they may be guided to the right path by His new guidance.

    Its evidence is in this verse:


    “Let him then who hopeth to attain the presence of his Lord work a righteous work.”


    The reason, that the Day of Manifestation of Qaim is called " the Day it is not for anyone to deny", is because, when Qaim comes, those who disbelieve in Him, will be known as disbelievers by God without even being asked a single question about their actions. Its evidence is in this verse:

    “‘On that day shall neither man nor spirit be asked of his sin"
     
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  14. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    The second death signifies there will be more disbelief. 'Death' is a metaphor for 'disbelief'. Here is the related Hadith:

    In Biharulanwar, vol 53, it is narrated from Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) that he said: Amirul Momineen (a.s.) used to say:
    “Muddaththir will be there during the period of Rajat.
    Someone asked: O Amirul Momineen (a.s.), is there a second life before
    Qiyamat? And then death after that?
    He replied: Yes, by Allah, during the period of Rajat there would be more disbelief.”

    We notice, the person is asking if there be another death, Imam replies yes, 'there will be more disbelief'.

    Does that make sense, if People literally return again to this world, and everyone sees the dead bodies rise, and yet, there is even more disbelief?

    And here is another verse that is evidence that reviving Dead is metaphorical, as Imams explained:


    Here are more proves from Quran and traditions:


    وقال الله عز وجل: " يخرج الحي من الميت ومخرج الميت من الحي [4] " فالحي: المؤمن الذي تخرج طينته من طينة الكافر والميت الذي يخرج من الحي: هو الكافر الذي يخرج من طينة المؤمن فالحي: المؤمن، والميت: الكافر وذلك قوله عز وجل: " أو من كان ميتا فأحييناه [5]

    This Hadith is from Imam Sadiq. With regards to the verse 30:19 (He brings the Dead out of living....), Imam said, it means, the 'believer is the living', and the 'disbeliever is the dead'...He will cause the attributes of believer to appear in a disbeliever!

    Now, here is the complete verse:

    "He brings forth the living from the dead and the dead from the living. He gives life to the earth after its death, and you shall be raised to life in the same way." 30:19

    We notice, the first part of the verse "He gives life to earth after its death", according to Hadithes means, when the earth is filled with injustice, the Qaim will bring justice.

    Here is the Hadith:


    It is recorded in Biharulanwar, that Imam Baqer interpreted the following verse:


    “Know that Allah gives life to the earth after its death; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you that you may understand.” (Surah Hadid 57:17)

    Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) said: “Allah, the Exalted will revive it through the Qaim after its death; its death implies disbelief of its inhabitants, because the disbelievers are dead.”

    So, I found hadithes that tells us, what the two sections of the verse 30:19 means.

    Now, last part of the verse 30:19 says, 'you shall be raised to life in the same way'. Can you help me,, and explain, what does the last part of it mean? I am interested in 2 way communication.
     
    #14 InvestigateTruth, Feb 24, 2020
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  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Why would God set it in stone that Islam would decline?
     
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  16. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, that doesn't make sense. Why would a person pray for god to send him back if he disbelieves? He no longer believes, why would he be asking for that?
     
  17. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    There are some verses that are obviously talking about spiritual death and spiritual life with respect to disbelief and faith. This doesn't mean every verse is talking about that that mentions death.

    For example, the verse "and we made no human to be immortal", what if someone said, this is because everything is perishing except God? What if someone said - it can mean a man can live forever, it just means, their spirit is constantly changing? You see, every word can be interpret multiple ways. This way, nothing in Quran becomes clear.

    Even justifying Imams are Gods becomes possible through Quran by this method. Ghulats reinterpret every verse to imply God is worshiped through worship of the Imams.

    The day of judgment, if you combine all the verses, is obviously leaves a clear impression. It's warning all humans of that and particularly there are verses about the day of judgment and the consequence of disbelief of Mohammad in that time.

    You can't even prove Quran advocates there is only one God by your method. You can even say what it means by one God is one light, so God is the light of all light, and what is really wrong about equating with God is attributing him false attributes or dark laws or dark entities as his sons and daughters, but God is to be Worshiped through worship of Imams, because they are the same light. You can make it that there is no true God but God to mean that. And Ghulats probably had their explanation of why Imams should be worshiped per Quran and ahadiths.

    They can use hadiths that say shirk is to associate in Wilayah of Ali to mean Ali should be worshiped.

    Your method is exactly the same but with respect to the day of judgment. It denies, it's clear impression, for obtuse unclear way, when God could've just said there will be another Prophet to come after. No need of tricking us about the day of judgment only for Bahais to understand it properly because they happen to interpret per Baha'allah's way.

    This doesn't make sense to me. There is a hadith qudsi from God that says "he doesn't believe in me who interprets my book per their opinion".





    What does it mean that they have no refuge on that day?
     
  18. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    By the way the impression, I get, from "respond to your Lord..." means do it now while you still have time. Because on the day of judgment, we won't be able to as there is no longer a refuge (so good to take refuge in God and his Messengers now), and there is no room for denial (meaning it's clear to the extent we can't even disbelieve no matter how much we my try to trick ourselves on that day).

    In other words you can't respond to God and take refuge in his guidance on the day of judgment. This is so clear, but who knows, maybe I'm the blind one.

    I think this is the clear impression, but, who knows, maybe God wants me to twist this verse 180 degrees like this a bit, then like that a bit, you know, de contextualize it.... because the reason why we should respond our Lord now, makes sense more only to prepare for Baha'allah when according to other verses per Bahai logic, it was set to stone, for Islam to decline and us go to disbelief.

    So what's the point of preparing for Baha'allah by the believers then? It's set in stone most will be disbelievers per Bahais, and what's the point of encouraging people by Baha'allah to believe and respond to God at that point.

    Jesus Christ - I've never seen a religion built on this much dishonesty. Bahaism has become proof of how dishonest humans can become to themselves, and God is the refuge!
     
  19. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    It is a Prophecy. God is All-Knowing. He knows future. He is just informing us about what will happen in the future. He has informed us, that Islam will decline.
    It is even like a good Tree. When it ages, it does not give fruits anymore. Thus, God plants a new Tree (He renews His religion). It is not for us to like it or not. God does what He wills.
     
  20. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    So what's the point of telling us to prepare for Baha'allah?
     
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