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is the USA dreamwalking into war with China.

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by Terrywoodenpic, May 23, 2020.

  1. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    It could be contended that Americas attacks on Chines companies is motivated by their inability to compete with them in commercial and technological terms. And in reality have nothing to do with spying or the stealing of American Know how.

    These attacks are made worse, because they go far beyond harming the ability of these Chinese companies to trade with the USA, but also with the rest of the world. an extremely unfriendly act.

    Would it be unreasonable to expect China to retaliate.?
    or will they be content to wait for the atmosphere to improve, once there is a change in administration?

    While the USA has a limited but very highly skilled technological and scientific work force. The pool of sufficiently educated and skilled potential recruits needed for a significant expansion of the sector, is virtually non existent. The American Education sector provides remarkably little depth at the higher levels.

    China on the other hand has an almost unlimited supply of such people and skills. it is inevitable that the advantage will continue to move in the Chinese direction. China is also creating increasing opportunities to Indian graduates, especially in the software engineering fields.

    How damaging would it be if China shut downs the Tiwanese"Foxconn" Apple plants in China. in retaliation?
    Or the supply of vital scientific components and instruments or raw materials.

    Interestingly Foxconn have announced that they are changing their business model to concentrate on making their own branded phones. which will leave Apple searching for a new supplier perhaps?

    Does Apple even still have the necessary in house practical expertise to set up comparable new production facilities from scratch.? nor is the necessary infrastructure in place to support such an operation.
     
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  2. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    We think it's fine for our companies to exploit other country's labor force for big profits, but it's a great crime for their companies to exploit our engineering expertise for their profit. Greed knows no borders. And when it becomes the motive of everything the U.S. does around the world, it's inevitable that it will soon become the motive of what those countries do to us, in turn.

    Welcome to a world governed by greed, instead of common sense. A world that we in the U.S. have modeled, and then forced everyone else to become, and that is now coming back to bite us in the ***.
     
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  3. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    You're describing exactly the reason why the U.S. never should have engaged in outsourcing in the first place. Anyone with any foresight could have seen this coming decades ago. My friends and I knew this back in the 1980s, yet the Ronnie Robots and conservative economists refused to listen. They said "Don't worry, be happy," which is what most people have been doing ever since.

    What do you call it when people sell out their country for money?

    People may be starting to get worried now, but it's too late for that. We're past the point of no return, thanks to the capitalists in both parties. It's now time to sit back and watch the world burn. Nothing else to do about it. I'll bring the marshmallows.
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Trump uses the "divide & conquer" approach a lot, which is right out of the Vladimir Putin Playbook that is similar to what some other autocrats used historically. Sometimes it's bluff to appeal to the masses, but also it's sometimes very real.

    If China wanted to really retaliate, they simply could shut off all shipments to the U.S., and that would destroy us economically for quite a while. For those of us whom are label readers, you know what I mean. However, if China did this, their economy would also take a major hit, but I believe they'd recover faster than we would.

    The rule-of-thumb when it comes to trade wars is usually this: we all lose.
     
  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Its all very dirty. Yes its a trade war, but beyond that we can't really assume that any of what is going on is what it appears to be, because its dirty. This whole trade war could be a front. I point out, again, not trying to derail but just pointing out that none of us knows what is being traded -- what's inside the computers.

    I don't understand China's ideology or Trump's, however I do understand how stupid and dangerous it is that our own chips (Intel) have so many secret processing directives. The chips are themselves a problem. We should all be switching to Arm chips with no secretive processing instructions, but its rare to find an arm based computer. As nervous as Intel's chipset makes me, I'm even less pleased to find the same chips manufactured overseas. I believe my concern is legitimate. Is it...sufficient to justify the US actions? No, but it justifies other actions such as ending the use of such chipsets. Is our government really upset about trade or is it trying to hide something about Intel chips? I wouldn't know. I don't understand what the fuss is about up there in the clouds between the administrations. They wouldn't bother explaining it to me.
     
    #5 Brickjectivity, May 23, 2020
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  6. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Likely. What will be difficult is finding replacements who will work the hours to fill demand, and do it for as little pay as they had.
     
  7. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Just saw an article related to the topic: US sanctions 33 Chinese entities at lowest point of US-China relations


    The House of Representatives is also set to vote to impose sanctions due to the Chinese treatment of the Uygurs and other ethnic minorities. China is denying the charge.

     
  8. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    What has the USA ever done to support the Chinese ethnic minorities in the past?
    It has not even taken the least action to support Tibet.
    Do you suppose Trump has changed his colours and is in any way fighting for Muslim rights? or for business interests?
    Is it not more likely this is just one more punt in the Trade war that The US administration is putting in place against China?

    Do you suppose Sanctions against Chinese technology companies will benefit the American businesses or the Uygurs?

    How long did it take the USA to respect the rights of native Americans and Blacks... and is that respect even skin deep.?
    Are they treated as Equal members of society even to day?

    Like America, China treats Muslim extremists with a great deal of suspicion, but unlike The USA has not fought major wars with them.
     
  9. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    It hasn't really been consistent, but apart from sanctions, there's very little the US can do realistically, other than pay lip service.

    I think Trump is trying to get reelected and may be using this issue to rally his home supporters and gain votes. I saw a recent poll where he's falling behind Biden. This is going to be one of the more ridiculous elections in US history.

    It could be that, although we've been at odds with China in the past. Our relations were terrible for the longest time, although we were allies during WW2, but then the Cold War made us adversaries again. In the past 30-40 years, relations have warmed somewhat - and it's been really cozy and lovey-dovey among the business community and the advocates of globalism. A lot of money has been made on both sides of the Pacific, and it may have been great for a while, but now, things have gone sour. A bad romance which was destined to fail. Anyone could have seen it coming.

    I don't think it's cause for war, though. Perhaps it's time for both countries to take a step back, tone down the rhetoric, and take a long, hard, objective look at the situation at hand and our overall relationship, both positive and negative. I don't know if we can expect that from Trump, and I'm not sure what we can expect from Xi.

    Only time will tell. I suppose it's possible, if the Chinese give better treatment to the Uygurs in exchange for lifting the sanctions. I somehow doubt the Chinese will do that. Some American businesses may benefit, although the article also mentioned that the sanctions were also due to technology used for military purposes.

    It took a long time. Although I think Chairman Mao was aware of it and also used it as a criticism against the US during the Cold War period. He was correct, at least on that point. His successors and the Chinese people were likely aware of this fact of US society as well - so you'd think that they would understand that it's a bad thing to mistreat someone due to their race, religion, or nationality. If they don't understand this, then I guess they have strayed pretty far.

    The short answer is no, but it's probably a bit more complicated than that. I'm an egalitarian myself, but I've learned that "equal" means different things to different people.

    True, although the US has also had Muslim allies in those same wars. So, the US is not against all Muslims, and there are millions of Muslims living and working in the US. Many are US citizens, with rights and Constitutional protections, and most of them seem to be doing okay, living productive and peaceful lives. I won't deny that there have been some incidents of harassment, and we certainly have more than our share of bigoted a**holes out there. It can be a crap situation at times.

    But China seems tone deaf about this. It's been like this ever since we gave them a pass after they broke up the Tiananmen Square protests. China does whatever it wants, and they act highly indignant and angry if anyone utters a peep of criticism. They don't even seem to understand why anyone would criticize them. I won't deny that the US government is pretty messed up, but the Chinese government is messed up, too.
     
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  10. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    Setting up a manufacturing chain is by itself not really an issue for a western company, especially not when it's sitting on a pile of cash that exceeds 100 billion which is readily available if need be.

    The reason manufacturing happens in china, isn't so much because they are impossibly better at it... it rather is because it costs a lot less money to manufacture over there, especially in terms of human resources.

    So the question is not if they could get it up and running in the US - they certainly could.
    The real question is, if they can then still stay as profitable without basicly doubling all their prices.


    One of the craziest things that Trump did when it comes to phone market, is to basicly make it illegal for enormous companies like Huawei of making use of the google play store on android.

    So really, Trump simply asked china (of all nations...), the biggest phone market in the world, to build a competing platform for the US based one... So now, the biggest phone makers of china get to have a worldwide "china" alternative to the google market - not only in their own home-based biggest phone market on the planet.

    So then all revenue that would normally flow to google and ultimately the american treasury through taxes, now will stay in china and disappear in chinese pockets.


    Yep. And it shows in the statistics / demographics of those who graduate american universities, especially in the sciences and technology. Half of them are H1B students. H1B is the student visa. These are foreigners that come to the US, get a US ivy league education and are trained in american technology and get phd's in it, and then return to their home countries - taking their newly acquired knowledge with them, and start companies there - benefitting the foreign economy.

    There are physics departments in US universities that simply can not find any american students that are properly qualified for doctorates and which consists entirely out of H1B students.


    And then people act surprised when new "Sillicon Valleys" pop up in countries like china and india...

    It's almost like self-sabotage, when you think about it.
     
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  11. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Got it in one.

    However America has vast regions where the wage levels for skilled worker is at Chinese levels. ( which are no longer any where near the low levels they once were)
    These areas are ripe for development.

    An interesting side point is that Companies like Huawei are investing billions in the top UK universities.
    not simply for their own Phd students to do their thing, but for the employment of top students world wide to come and research. This has a massive benefit to the UK as well as to Huawei as they both have an equal share of that research. It would seem Huawei is perfectly happy to pay in full for what they gain.

    They are also offering top scientists from around the world sky high salaries, to go and work in their own facilities in China. They have Billions to spend on research and have no qualms about spending it.

    The down side for some scientists is that they have to be prepared to live and works in China.
    Though the alternative for some is to go and lead research in one of the European endowed university colleges.

    Seems like a win win for a bright student.
     
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