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Is the universe orderly?
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
No, I think I need some clarification
The clarification is: the claim that we will be able to anticipate what we will have for breakfast in exactly one year, might not be true. And that does not entail that our brains are not deterministic. It just entails that we cannot do that, for physical reasons, possibly.
Ciao
- viole
Thanks for clarifying
what physical reason could there be? Keep in mind I don't really believe we will ever be able to actually do this. I just think its theoretically possible.
Thanks for clarifying
I don't believe we will be able to this, either. But that does not imply that our decision processes are not deterministic. And since everything else seems to be deterministic, I have no rational reason to make an exception for human brains, without invoking some a priory belief. I.e. Begging the question.
Ciao
- viole
MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
I agree with you. To say something is 'orderly' can mean different things. Even though the universe has unimaginably violent events and places, and things that would vaporize most of our entire solar system, every event obeys the laws of physics. So the universe is law abiding down to the smallest quantum event and therefore orderly which is the opposite of chaotic/chaos.
God isn't dead or hiding, he is simply waiting just beyond beyond the uncertainty of quantum realm to greet us into our birthright of celestial nirvana ~
God be with the world ~
MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
If he wants to be he is. Lol. ha ha! Oh man. God is not affected by time but God can effect gravity and time.
With that said, I see the general view of this forum, well at least the last few members, is that the universe is deterministic.....Why does anyone that is not spiritual (religious in nature) think that? If one puts 'stock', no not 'stock' a better word is 'faith' in science, one would say the science establishment ** opines the universe is probabilistic, not deterministic. How could a scientist, or a scientist 'groupie' say events of the universe are deterministic when even the smallest events (by smallest events I mean quantum) when combined with Chaos theory and Kurt Godels incompleteness theory are the opposite of deterministic? Hmmm?
Maybe someone should clarify deterministic just to shut off any venue of escape and to clarify....
footnotes
** This reference (above) to 'The scientific establishment' include those poor souls that construct their view of reality around what the science priests of the day say is truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me Darwin.
Aust ter' leur' veist' ah' ~ hee hee' ~
1) Chaos theory is classical, therefore deterministic, albeit non linear. Intractability does not equate non determinism.
2) Goedel theorem has nothing to do with determinism or lack thereof
3) The (quantum) evolution equation of Schroendiger looks pretty deterministic. And at least one interpretation of QM (gaining pupularity) makes even the observation process completely deterministic
So, not any single point you mentioned is a sufficient condition to falsify determinism. Even if determinism were false.
Ciao
- viole
MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
With all due respect there are perhaps 100 interpretations of quantum theory and of that ten are considered the most rational and possible and proper to use in discussion etc. Godel's theory (Godel was a theist) certainly does offer evidence via his (2nd) incompleteness theory. Here is a excerpt from a source;
"The second argument coming from logic is much more modern and sophisticated
; it appeals to Gödel’s incompleteness theorems (Gödel 1931) to make the case against determinism" The reason I did not include an entire write on the subject was to show that its well known that Godel's (2nd) incompleteness theorem were used to validate or invalidate determinism. Maybe you simply didn't get that far along in your logistic studies? http://math.stanford.edu/~feferman/papers/GodelFreeWill.pdf
metaphysical Naturalist
I am a theist and youa metaphysical Naturalist, we should have more in common than otherwise. So I can only assume you are using a definition of determinism I am unaware of, or you are simply wrong (to my eyes and understandings). I did ask for an definition. Oh and your criticize of my use of Chaos as it relates to determinism is in error as well! Actually I have two ideas of how the universe works, the universe one with God and one without well one as in deism.
Here are the definitions, well what I was taught a decade or two ago;
(1) A deterministic system is one in which the occurrence of all events is known with certainty. If the description of the system state at a particular point of time of its operation is given, the next state can be perfectly predicted. If God exists and I think he or it does, only he can know the universe as a deterministic system.
(2) A probabilistic system is one in which the occurrence of events cannot be perfectly predicted. Though the behavior of such a system can be described in terms of probability, a certain degree of error is always attached to the prediction of the behavior of the system.
Man may never to know the true nature of the universe due to our limited intelligence and the evidences offered up by Godel and others.
"The second argument coming from logic is much more modern and sophisticated
; it appeals to Gödel’s incompleteness theorems (Gödel 1931) to make the case against determinism" The reason I did not include an entire write on the subject was to show that its well known that Godel's (2nd) incompleteness theorem were used to validate or invalidate determinism. Maybe you simply didn't get that far along in your logistic studies? http://math.stanford.edu/~feferman/papers/GodelFreeWill.pdf
metaphysical Naturalist
I am a theist and youa metaphysical Naturalist, we should have more in common than otherwise. So I can only assume you are using a definition of determinism I am unaware of, or you are simply wrong (to my eyes and understandings). I did ask for an definition. Oh and your criticize of my use of Chaos as it relates to determinism is in error as well! Actually I have two ideas of how the universe works, the universe one with God and one without well one as in deism.
Here are the definitions, well what I was taught a decade or two ago;
(1) A deterministic system is one in which the occurrence of all events is known with certainty. If the description of the system state at a particular point of time of its operation is given, the next state can be perfectly predicted. If God exists and I think he or it does, only he can know the universe as a deterministic system.
(2) A probabilistic system is one in which the occurrence of events cannot be perfectly predicted. Though the behavior of such a system can be described in terms of probability, a certain degree of error is always attached to the prediction of the behavior of the system.
Man may never to know the true nature of the universe due to our limited intelligence and the evidences offered up by Godel and others.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
They, the Atheism people, object that there are many interpretations of a verse in religion so under this pretext they deny religion. Why don't they deny science with 100 interpretations of quantum theory? Is it reasonable?
It is not only unreasonable but inequitable also. Right? Please
Anybody, please
Regards
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
deny religion?
How so?
Do I deny that religion exists?
No, not at all.
I do, however, have serious doubts on how much truth there is in religion.
With the number of theists on this very forum who have no problems telling flat out lies, clutching desperately to their willful ignorance, etc. it is rather difficult to take religion seriously.
But there are soooooooooooooooo many 'GODs',
who controls what, that keeps the Cosmos orderly ?
~
There are no 'GODs', and the Cosmos is in chaos.
Explain colliding galaxies, going outward from a common source !
Explain the expansion of energy, into a nothingness !
~
Back to the OP please !
~
'mud
who controls what, that keeps the Cosmos orderly ?
~
There are no 'GODs', and the Cosmos is in chaos.
Explain colliding galaxies, going outward from a common source !
Explain the expansion of energy, into a nothingness !
~
Back to the OP please !
~
'mud
MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Great observation! Inside the great halls of science its often man against man theory against theory, lol! The entrenched career scientists and professors of academia own fighting and cut throat skills that would make Al Capone proud! If you don't like the answer science gives for a problem just, wait, it will change, and change again and again. That's the scientific method. Have a look at the well loved theory of evolution. If those that nearly worship science would admit it Darwin's original theory is barely recognizable when compared to some of today's 'evolutionary derivatives' accepted today as 'Darwinian theory'. Again the casual reader might think I dislike science, nothing could be farther from the truth. My hobbies are science orientated. And I feel we owe much science for its contributions to humanity.
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MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
How do you know if there is one a thousand or no Gods? You have a right to an opinion and I respect that. What you or anyone else does not have is the moral might to disrespect the God I worship, no more than I have the moral right to say bad things about your mother or other family members or loved ones. And just saying if God exists, a supernatural or super-normal God or intelligent designer, what it looks like means nothing. If it created the universe I don't give a flying freak if God looks like the FSM, I will worship it. Only a complete fool would reject a being that creates a universe by will alone.That would be the ultimate expression stupidity. Hey stand over there! Lighting bolts have a kill zone! Lol!
~
The universe appears to be in an orderly state with areas of different physical events. BTW, where in the universe do you see Chaos, and please define how you are using Chaos?
Its difficult to visualize the universe expanding along with space, time, and energy but all this is expanding within the confines of the universe. So now it should be easier to understand the universe or energy or anything mass related of field related etc is not expanding into nothingness has no boundaries, the universe expands into stretched space is a simple way to visualize it if a bit inaccurate.
~
What for?
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MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Roan mountain is up the road a waze'....about 10 klicks, there are flowers there called Rhododendron that bloom each year....damn tourists. (just kidding I love tourists....Btw Mud its religious thought like the Buddhists Hindus and early Christians employ that lead to discovery of the metaphysical kind. The western mind (AKA the Greek, ie the crib of democracy) and way of thinking has its uses too, applied science and like things. So grasshopper,er Mud I will close for now ~
A interweb pic of roan mountain (above)
And the Brown Mountain lights,
hard to explain, And I love all mothers and such,
but all those 'Gods', except yours of course.
The 'creator' outside of the boundaries of Nirvana,
The container of all of that nothingness, except,
the speck of more nothing, a potential waiting to be ,
existence.
~
Back to real crap here, the Cosmos !
~
'mud
hard to explain, And I love all mothers and such,
but all those 'Gods', except yours of course.
The 'creator' outside of the boundaries of Nirvana,
The container of all of that nothingness, except,
the speck of more nothing, a potential waiting to be ,
existence.
~
Back to real crap here, the Cosmos !
~
'mud
MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Unique prose Mud. The Cosmos is the real crap? Lol, many wise men have issues with reality. After I learned that light has as speed and then that every star and planet we an see in the night sky is what the planet and star looked like in the past, the cosmos has become an abstract of reality and proof that reality does not really exist (reality as explained via traditional definition or the grown up version of reality we learned it after the magical thinking of childhood was wiped out). So too Einstein was a 'denier' of traditional reality, for example he said, "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." INDEED!......
Speaking of Einstein I will post a few of my favorite quotes from the famous deist, the first being the most favorite ....;
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
"For every one billion particles of antimatter there were one billion and one particles of matter. And when the mutual annihilation was complete, one billionth remained - and that's our present universe."
"I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research."
"Truth is what stands the test of experience."
"The tragedy of life is what dies inside a man while he lives." - Albert Einstein
"The gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent or absorbing positive knowledge." - Albert Einstein
God bless you Albert, God less you indeed! .... RIP
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jonathan180iq
Well-Known Member
Anything that "works" has the appearance of "order", doesn't it?
There is a theological argument that I hear often and I'm wondering if you're mentally taking this approach, and it states that the Universe appears designed solely for our survival. It's the Fine Tuning argument.
It is a silly belief.
Knowing what we know, and then assuming that all humans were removed from the equation, the Universe would then appear perfectly designed for..... Which animal or plant would you put next?
Trees?
Elephants?
Dolphins?
Rocks?
The Fine Tuning argument is an expression of bias and little more.