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Featured Is the universe infinite or finite?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by firedragon, May 12, 2021.

?
  1. Infinite

  2. Finite

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  1. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    But you cannot visualize 4D space?

    The 4th being time. We are dealing with universe, so it does concern spacetime.

    The question is why you keep trying to leave out "time"?
     
  2. ben d

    ben d Being

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    I can visualize 4D space time.

    I didn't leave out time, what I am saying is that time is not a real entity like space, it is mental creation to track changes in 3D space. A clock does not measure anything except its own internal workings.
     
  3. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    The 'block universe' is the natural conclusion from general relativity.
    Whereas the passage of time seems to be a mental constructs (see above), the evidence says that general relativity is a good model, and time is a real dimension.
    And if this were true, we'd expect to see differences between different types of 'clock' in experiments and observations that test relativity. We don't. It affects all physical processes that we've applied it to. Not to mention predictions that rely on the same theory, like gravitational waves.
     
    #463 ratiocinator, Oct 24, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  4. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    All fair and well.
    But there are 3 levels to this story:
    That we can test.
    What we can end up with in the future to test.
    If there is a limit to what we can test.

    In short we are playing:
    We can test some things, therefore we can test everything.
    And it is as it stands an invalid logical deduction. Now can we test everything in future?
    Or rather can we one day in the future fulfill the idea that the human rationality can rule everything? I don't know and I don't have a rational position on it as either a known positive or known negative. So I don't know.
     
  5. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Ok.

    Time as a mental construct works, but we disagree as to its reality beyond that.

    The universe is one, do you think it is theoretically possible for some parts to be younger than other parts because time had passes slower in those parts? If not, why not?
     
  6. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    Yes, of course it's possible. It's not even possible to define an absolute moment in time that applies over distance. The whole idea of simultaneity is relative even in special relativity. So two people moving at walking pace relative to each other on Earth will disagree about what is happening 'now' at the distance of the Andromeda galaxy by several days (relative speed of 4mph gives about a 5.5 day difference at Andromeda).
     
  7. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Does relativity apply to, albeit minutely, say a tennis ball, are some parts getting younger wrt other parts of the ball because time is passing slower in these areas?
     
  8. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    Yes, although the effects are tiny. Also, due to gravitational time dilation, your feet are a tiny bit younger than your head because they've experienced, on average, a lower gravitational potential.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Not quite along that track, but a question, can we say electrons have age?
     
  10. ben d

    ben d Being

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    ^ No takers? Well I would imagine electrons bound in old rocks that are electrically non-conductive would be the same age as the rock. But beyond that, I imagine some electrons would have age, perhaps going back to their original creation?
     
  11. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Well, rocks are not for all the time of the universe in the standard model of the universe as per science.
     
  12. ben d

    ben d Being

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    I was asking about electrons, and used the idea of electrons bound inside a rock being at least the age of the rock. The rest was speculation about electrons age going back to the creation of electrons.

    So while I have your interest, what is the form of an electron as per your understanding?
     
  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Not me, you should ask. But form is maybe not the most useful word to use when you talk about electrons.
     
  14. ben d

    ben d Being

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    What would you suggest?
     
  15. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    That you learn basic science as a methodology. Then concentrate on physics. You can't learn that by just asking limited questions about say electrons. They are a part of a bigger explanation than just the question you ask.
     
  16. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Oh, I suggest that you don't have a clue what an electron is..."Not me, you should ask." .
     
  17. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    No, I do have a clue. I have done basic science. But I am not your teacher nor a teacher in science. So there are other better ways than just asking on a forum.
     
  18. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

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    Both.

    It is finite because as conscious beings we have to define it in order to understand it.

    It is infinite because measurements are subjective tools for comparing relationships and don't exist outside conscious experience.
     
    #478 Guitar's Cry, Oct 25, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
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  19. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Take it up with RF's admin if you resent my asking questions. I observe many members asking questions, I would have thought it was ok.
     
  20. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Yes, it is okay. But maybe there are better places than here to ask what an electron is.
     
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