Is the Universe Infinite or Finite?

[Polymath257]

I like the idea of a Mobius Strip universe. The 2 dimensional nature of it, go along with the idea of the universe being a hologram. This is not neccessarily related, but an interesting idea; on a Mobius strip, the farthest distance is also the closest. So, if you could poke a hole in the strip, you could literally move to the absolute farthest point without really traveling.

More interesting are variants of a Klein bottle, which has the same 'one-sided' aspect as the Mobius strip, but is not bounded (the edge of the strip is a boundary).

Also, both the Mobius strip and the Klein bottle are technically two dimensional manifolds. There are more unusual three dimensional manifolds that can serve as the 'flat' version of space (even in cases of zero curvature) and are finite while still being non-orientable.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes. Semantics. Thank you. I have heard many times that man cannot actually conceive the infinite. Then I ran into a man in a truck stop, who said they all have it backwards, that man is incapable of accepting the finite. Both ideas are a bit lacking of imagination in my view.

I believe we can conceive of the infinite simply realizing that what ever number, things in an infinite set, or concept of a series of infinite events, we can conceive of there is always a number, a possible thing in an infinite set, or a possible event beyond that.

 

[Lester Tryon]

I believe we can conceive of the infinite simply realizing that what ever number, things in an infinite set, or concept of a series of infinite events, we can conceive of there is always a number, a possible thing in an infinite set, or a possible event beyond that.

The man I believe was referring to a more theological concept, such as accepting death, and as such was trying to explain why man would need to believe in an after-life. I decided a long while back not to worry whether or not there is. I try to live my life best I can, and treat others with as much dignity and respect as I can, not because of anything that may or may not happen after I'm dead. On the other hand, if it's over when it's over, then it's like flipping a light switch, in which case I won't be aware of it anyway.

 

[Lester Tryon]

More interesting are variants of a Klein bottle, which has the same 'one-sided' aspect as the Mobius strip, but is not bounded (the edge of the strip is a boundary).

Also, both the Mobius strip and the Klein bottle are technically two dimensional manifolds. There are more unusual three dimensional manifolds that can serve as the 'flat' version of space (even in cases of zero curvature) and are finite while still being non-orientable.

I don't have a klein bottle to hold so maybe I'm missing it, but from examining the pictures, it seems as though there is an inside and an outside. e.g. it will hold liquid. The inside and outside are connected by rounded edges, but to get out would require going back the way you came in. I guess the point is that you can get to any part of it without leaving its surface? Wouldn't a Mobius Strip in a 2 dimensional universe only have one side? Being as the edge although an end to a surface would not have any thickness, not exist from the side?

 

[Polymath257]

I don't have a klein bottle to hold so maybe I'm missing it, but from examining the pictures, it seems as though there is an inside and an outside. e.g. it will hold liquid. The inside and outside are connected by rounded edges, but to get out would require going back the way you came in. I guess the point is that you can get to any part of it without leaving its surface? Wouldn't a Mobius Strip in a 2 dimensional universe only have one side? Being as the edge although an end to a surface would not have any thickness, not exist from the side?

One of the problems with a Klein bottle is that it cannot fit in three dimensions without intersecting itself. And, like the Mobius strip, it is non-orientable. You can get from any point on the surface to the point directly through the 'paper' or 'glass' without leaving the surface. Also, you often see 'Klein bottles with a hole in them' to allow for the self-intersection to be avoided.

Sidedness is a technically trickier thing because it depends on the space you are embedding into. A Mobuis strip embedded in ordinary, Euclidean, three dimensional space has one side. But it can have two sides if embedded in other spaces.

 

[shunyadragon]

The man I believe was referring to a more theological concept, such as accepting death, and as such was trying to explain why man would need to believe in an after-life. I decided a long while back not to worry whether or not there is. I try to live my life best I can, and treat others with as much dignity and respect as I can, not because of anything that may or may not happen after I'm dead. On the other hand, if it's over when it's over, then it's like flipping a light switch, in which case I won't be aware of it anyway.

OK. Actually a very Zen approach and not bad. Glad you clarified your conceptualization of the 'unknown' infinite, which in the view is the infinite beyond our physical existence.

I personally find an indifference to problem of life, death, the spiritual journey, and life after death or life, nor any concern for what is nature of the 'infinite' beyond our physical existence. I acquired from my experience with Buddhism.

I believe in apophatic God and the Baha'i Faith, but not for any concern for life, death, and the afterlife. I did so, because the belief in a spiritual univeral evolution of human nature,

 

[SabahTheLoner]

I voted finite, as a guess. Until we have proof to show otherwise, light will be the fastest thing in the universe, there will be universal laws, there is a limited but enormous number of atoms, time only moves forward, and there will be an end to our world.

 

[Thief]

Inspired by another thread in which the OP claims the universe is finite, I went off on a tangent to research if this was indeed the case. In my search, I stumbled across this video...

Clearly science doesn't have an answer for this...yet, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Is the universe finite or infinite? Why do you believe this to be true?

I'm going with infinite....
just because my existence could prove finite

this creation was here long before me
and likely to be so long after me

I will reserve my lean toward an infinite Almighty for another thread

 

[Terese]

Salix, when you mean 'universe', do you mean to say 'reality'? Or are you just referring to the universe we currently inhabit? How can a universe have any number of universes inside it? Thanks

 

[siti]

I'm aware that our observable universe is 13.8 million light years in any direction...

Not correct unfortunately - the observable universe is approximately 93 billion light years across (approx. 46.5 billion light years in any direction). This is because the universe has been expanding (at an apparently accelerating rate) for the entire 13.8bn years of its existence so anything we see at the edge of the observable universe (from our current perspective) was very much closer to (i.e. right on top of) the region of space where earth now is 13.8bn years ago (when the light we now observe was emitted) but is now about 46.5bn light years away (by the time that light reaches earth) - and since the galaxies furthest away are accelerating away from us faster than the speed of light, we will never be able to observe some of them. If the accelerating expansion of the universe continues as it seems to be, although the size of the observable universe will continue to increase, there will be less and less of it to be observed as the content of the universe accelerates beyond the scope of even the most advanced technologies. So I reckon, curiously enough, as far as internal observers are concerned, that the universe is finite and set get even finiter as it expands into infinite oblivion. I suggest we take as many snaps as we can while we still have the chance - mind you I think we still have a few million years to perfect our observational skills before we notice the lights going out faster than they come on, but cosmologically speaking, homo sapiens is definitely in a privileged observational time frame.

All that said, I voted infinite.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Inspired by another thread in which the OP claims the universe is finite, I went off on a tangent to research if this was indeed the case. In my search, I stumbled across this video...

Clearly science doesn't have an answer for this...yet, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Is the universe finite or infinite? Why do you believe this to be true?

I think universe itself is finite, but not time and space. You would think in order for there to be a finite Universe, there will also be needed something to "contain" it. What lay pass that?

 

[DavidFirth]

@SalixIncendium, good poll but you left out a choice. How about,

"I don't know."

 

[SalixIncendium]

@SalixIncendium, good poll but you left out a choice. How about,

"I don't know."

I intentionally did not make that an option, as no one knows. As opposed to some other threads, I actually am looking for conjecture, hypothesis, and opinion here.

 

[DavidFirth]

I intentionally did not make that an option, as no one knows. As opposed to some other threads, I actually am looking for conjecture, hypothesis, and opinion here.

Okay, I gotcha. Well, I have no idea. The Bible doesn't say and of course we can't see out there but only so far.