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Is the Trinity Biblical?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Green Gaia, May 24, 2004.

  1. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    pah,

    God didn't write the Bible.
     
  2. Christ Michael

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    For hundreds of years the greatest minds in the world believed that the Earth was flat but we all know, now, that it was a false belief. It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that we should have believed The Biblical account of everything, especially after it became painfully obvious that IT JUST ISN'T TRUE. If you haven't noticed yet, everything is in one big progressive evolution and that includes you as well. The posts from The UBook support the contention that Godhead is a Trinity as Catholics claim, except that The UBook states that Jesus is NOT part of Trinity but an offspring between The Universal Father and The Eternal Son. Furthermore The UBook's explanations make perfect sense as the REVEALED TRUTHS should.
    One should never judge a book by its cover, or who wrote it, but by what it says.


    Cheers
     
  3. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Which aliens wrote the book? Where are they from? How did humans get a hold of it? When was it written?
     
  4. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    Oh, to the contrary. A book should be judged by who wrote it. I don't put a whole lot of faith in books written by Hitler. I don't trust most of what is written by politicians. I know if a comedian writes a book, it's probably supposed to be funny. Knowing who wrote a book and what their motivations where is everything! This is the reason for reading, to get into the "mind" of the author, to try to see the world the way he/she did. The words the author uses are just a way for us to do that. We can't literally see through their eyes, we must be able to trust what they are saying to see what they are seeing.

    If what they're saying doesn't ring true, if there are inconsistencies, if they contradict well established fact, most people assume that the author had another purpose other than truth.

    PS. I reject that truth is evolutionary. I believe truth is eternal. Time is one way. It either rained yesterday, or it didn't. The sky is either blue, or it isn't. Candy is sweet, the pope is Catholic, the enemy is real, the Father loves us. Truth is TRUTH. TRUTH doesn't evolve, only our understanding does.
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hi, Michael

    Would you show me in the Bible, please, where the idea that the Earth is flat comes from?

    Is there a Chapter and Verse I can look at?
     
  6. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Actually you've just managed to come up with two complete fallacies in these two statements. First, it was already known that the earth was a sphere before Christ's Incarnation, the ancient Greeks (and maybe others) having discovered the fact. Secondly, the Bible does not state that the earth is flat at all. In fact, it's quite easy to argue the reverse. Just because the Roman Catholic church once had a problem with the idea that the earth was a globe doesn't mean that all of Christianity did, nor does it mean the idea that the earth is flat is supported by Scripture. Plenty of Christians never voiced any opposition to the idea that the earth was a globe - we Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox, for instance.

    James
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    James, it was a fact that was "discovered"? By the Greeks (and maybe others)?

    Perhaps it was documented long before that in a Book?
     
  8. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    I don't dispute it. I think that it's fairly clear from Scripture also, but I was trying to point out that the science of pre-Christian Europe also had ascertained that the earth was a globe. You'll notice that I also pointed out that Scripture does not suggest the earth is flat, I hope.

    James
     
  9. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hi, James.

    Ya, I caught that too. I think it's neat how Aristotle supported the Earth being round:
    • ships disappear over the horizon hull-first
    • the farther south you go, the sooner the stars rise
    • the curve of the Earth's shadow on the moon's surface during an eclipse
     
  10. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    Hope these help Micheal:

    Pro 8:27 When he established the heavens, I was there; When he set a circle on the surface of the deep, (HNV)

    Isaih 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

    Job 26:10 He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters At the boundary of light and darkness. (RSV)

    Job 26:7 God stretches the northern sky over empty space and hangs the earth on nothing. (NLT)
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    A short extract from:-http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1531


    "
    The Trinity

    By: Charles T. Buntin , M.S., M.A.R.

    I was not looking forward to the next 45 days. As happens to military families everywhere, I was going away on Uncle Sam’s business for about six weeks, and with a young wife and three small children at home, that was no fun. There was one thing about this trip, however, that made it bearable--I was going to have a Christian roommate. I was looking forward to the opportunity to fellowship and study with another believer, and I was definitely not going to miss having to put up with the drunken carousing of former roomies.

    After performing our duties and getting settled in the first day, my roommate, Bill, and I began our first nightly devotional study. About five minutes into the study, an amazing thing became apparent to me--Bill had been taught a false doctrine of the Trinity in his church. I was appalled--he went to a large, powerful, Baptist church that was renowned for Biblical preaching, missionary work, and evangelism. I knew that he attended Bible studies through the week as well as the normal Sunday morning and Sunday night preaching services and Sunday school. He had been converted in this church three years earlier--how could he not know the orthodox teaching on the Trinity?

    Over the next few days, I showed him what the Bible taught about the nature of the Triune God, and he came to see the truth. I also found out how he had come to the odd view he’d had previously. In three years of intense fellowship and study in a large, conservative, dynamic Baptist church, he had never once heard the Trinity mentioned. His understanding had come from erroneous answers his Sunday School teacher had given him when Bill brought the topic up in private conversation. In our 45 days together, we shared many things, and I found out that the “renowned” church really only stressed John 3:16, tithing, behaving, and the second coming of Christ--important doctrines to be sure, but far from the whole truth.

    Throughout the history of the church, the enemies of God have attacked the Biblical teaching concerning His Nature, particularly the Deity of the Son of God. The doctrine we touch upon in this chapter is one of the most attacked (and best and most consistently defended) of all the major teachings of the Faith: God is Triune, eternally existing as Father, Son, and Spirit (three persons or personalities that are personally distinct)--yet there is only one God. This has been called the doctrine of the TRINITY since the days of the early church, but the early church wars and the philosophical debates surrounding that doctrine, have obscured the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity is solidly supported by Holy Scripture, and is directly drawn from the Scriptures.

    The simple statement we have made, stripped of the technically philosophical terms, expresses what the Bible everywhere teaches about the subject. I Frankly don’t understand it for one second. However, I recognize fully that the Bible teaches these truths, so I believe them and teach them whether I understand them or not. Therefore, the key presupposition we must have as we approach the doctrine of the Trinity is this: BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES, AND DON’T TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT. Think of it--this doctrine speaks of the very essential nature of God, how can we expect to understand it? .................":)
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Maize,

    This thread was first started about the time I joined this forum. I evidently missed it at that time, since I was just finding my way around here! Somebody resurrected it today, and I saw it for the first time.

    Anyway, when I read your opening post, I thought, "Oh man, I've got my work cut out for me! When am I going to find the time to devote to tackling such a gargantuan topic?" And then I decided to scroll down to see what everyone else had to say. And I came to this post. Yippee! Somebody did my work for me!

    I think you've explained perfectly now this doctrine evolved. And, in the process, you also answered a question Victor posed to me about a week ago: Why don't the Latter-day Saints believe in the Trinity?

    May I just add the following (mostly for VIctor's benefit), to tie up some loose ends as to what I personally believe. While I (as a Latter-day Saint) do believe in the Godhead (which is the biblical term describing the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost), I reject all of the platonic mysticism that tragically distorted the true nature of God. The Bible says nothing at all to imply that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one "in substance" or "essence." While these three are perfectly united in will, purpose, mind and heart, they are three physically distinct beings who share the name of God. It's a simple and beautiful as that.

    Awesome, awesome, awesome post! You put a lot of work into that one. Thanks a million.

    Kathryn
     
  13. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    Michel and Maize,
    Strange how this forum wanders.

    No matter how often you state a false doctrine (one in contradiction to the scriptures), it doesn't make it true. There is one God, the Father. He has a son. The Son has characteristics of His Father by birth, but he does not hold the position of the Father, the ultimate ruler of the universe, any more than a prince is the ultimate authority of a country and has only the authority his father, the king, gives him.

    There is no third person. The holy spirit is simply God's Spirit. Is it any wonder that God's spirit is holy? God's spirit is not seperate from Him any more than your spirit is a seperate person than your spirit is a seperate person from you. It is you, the essence of who you are.

    I understand that few "christians" understand this truth. Consider some of my previous posts for documentation about my claims. If you would like to make a counter claim, evidence for your claim would make this discussion much easier. I generally use the Holy scriptures to back up my claims, but if you would like to use another source, please explain why it should be trusted over the Bible.
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi there, dharveymi. (How do I pronounce that anyway? ;) )

    It's nice to have a Seventh-day Adventist around. We can always use another perspective. It's looks like you've made a number of posts, but this is the first time I can recall talking to you. So, even though others may have welcomed you some time ago, allow me to re-welcome you now!

    With some very minor qualifications, I agree with what you've said in this first paragraph. In other words (in case you didn't read my prior post), I do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity either. I know very little about your denomination. I'm wondering if your own personal beliefs correspond to the official doctrines of your church. I ask because the only information I have on the Adventists is that they do believe in the Trinity. So I'm wondering if my source is inaccurate.

    I disagree with you on this paragraph, however. I believe that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, each have their own spirit. But I also believe that the Holy Ghost is the third personage of the Godhead. When Jesus told His Apostles to go into all the world, preaching His gospel and baptising those who would accept it "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," do you believe this to mean, "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Father's spirit?" I'm unclear as to why He would have told them to baptise both in the name of His Father and His Father's spirit. Would you mind explaining?

    I'd like to continue a discussion on this topic, but I'll wait until you have answered the questions I've asked. And I will stick to using only the Bible, since it's the one source we both accept as valid.

    Kathryn
     
  15. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Very interesting research on the Council of Nicea. Athanasius, it appears, reflected egyptian beliefs in his his interpetive doctrine of Christianity. This is off the top of my head but the egyptians believed there were three facets of a human being. One was equated with the soul, one was eqauted to the spirit, and was related to the physical body. We often have to seek what lies down deep within the psyche to examine the roots of belief.
     
  16. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Sorry Maize, I am new here so my post was not looking so good. I don't consider the Trinity to be anything more than a creation myth. Separating the truth from the mythology is a very daunting task.
     
  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hi, Bennett

    Separating the truth from the mythology is God's job ... not ours.

    He said He would do it (Psalm 12:6-7), and has done so throughout history.

    His most recent "separation" came in 1611.
     
  18. chariot of fire

    chariot of fire New Member

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    THE FALLIBILITY OF TRINITY:bounce ​

    We cannot find the word Trinity in the Bible but we can read about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However, the Bible does not say that this is what they call "The Holy Trinity." This doctrine teaches that there are three deities, equal in power but distinct - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This implies that these three are three Gods in one. This is impossible for this would mean that God has three heads. When asked to explain, Trinitarians reason that this is difficult to explain because the Holy Trinity is a mystery. This is neither Biblical nor true. The Bible teaches that there is only one God. Let us quote 1 John 5:8 telling, "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

    Does the Bible speak about the mystery of God?

    Yes, it does but in no way is it similar to what Trinitarians call the mystery of the Holy Trinity. In 1 Timothy 3:16 we can read, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." The Bible never spoke about the Holy Three, just the Holy One. ​

    Is the belief that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three separate persons true?

    Let us look at this verse: Matthew 3:16-17 says, "... and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

    Trinitarian interpreters advocate that the voice from heaven, the descent of the Holy Spirit in the form of the dove and the figure of Jesus in the Jordan River represent the three persons.

    However, the baptism of Jesus was not meant to be a revelation of the Trinity.
    • In John 1:32-34, we notice that the descent of the dove and the voice from heaven were a sign to John that Jesus was the Messiah! It is very probable that John and Jesus were the only ones who heard the voice and saw the manifestation. It does not say that the crowd saw and heard anything, but rather that Jesus saw the dove (Matthew 3:16) and John bare record of it (John 1:32-34).
    • Furthermore, the voice from heaven, the form of the dove, and the figure of Jesus does not demand separate personalities anymore than the fire that sat upon those at Pentecost (Acts 2:3) demand 120 different spirits!
    • The form of the dove and the voice were all manifestations of the Omnipresent God. That same Spirit that was Christ was represented by the form of a dove and a voice from heaven. (see also John 3:23)
    In Matthew 3:17, the voice referred to Jesus as a man. However, these two (the voice and Jesus Christ as the Son) are the same but having two manifestations - as God and man. Remember that the Bible in Matthew 1:18 tells us that Mary conceived and gave birth to Jesus Christ. Scripture also tells us that the conception was of the Holy Ghost. When the child was born, the Word became the Son who called out "Father." Who is this "Father" that the Son calls out to? He is the One who conceived Him - none other than the Holy Ghost.

    Let's illustrate: When I speak, I cannot be separated from my words. My word and I are one. In the same way, when you speak, you and your word are the same; you two are not separate. So it is with God.



    What is the right formula for baptism, by name or by title?

    The command of the Lord to the apostles was: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19) In obedience to this command, the apostles baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. The apostles rightly obeyed Christ's commission because God opened their understanding. (Luke 24:45)

    Acts 2:37-38 says, "Repent and let every one of you baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
    • Acts 10:46-48 - Baptism is performed by the apostles in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • Acts 19:1-5 - Baptism was also administered in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
    The Lord's command is to baptize in the Name of Jesus Christ; not His titles. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not God's names, but are titles of God's three great manifestations. God's other titles can be read in Isaiah 9:6.


    How will you explain the idea that if the son was sent, somebody has sent Him?

    This thought leads many to the conclusion that God the Son, who was sent, is different from God the Father who has sent Him.

    We have already studied that God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and that the Spirit has the Word. It says in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God." God, who is a Spirit, sent the Word. The word did not just remain a word but was manifested in the flesh (John 1:14)

    Now, remember that God's word has the power to create. Every word that comes out from His mouth accomplishes what is was sent out to do. He created the earth and all that are in it through His Word. In the story of Creation, we repeatedly read God saying, "And let there be..." in the same way, the Word that He sent out from Himself manifested in the flesh. (Isaiah 55:10-11) "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my Word be that goeth forth out of my mouth. It shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent."


    This proves that there is only one God or the Holy One.

    Reference verses that bear witness to the truth of one God

    HOLY ONE:
    Mark 1:24, Isaiah 60:14, Isaiah 45:11, Isaiah 29:19 Isaiah 60:9 Isaiah 41:14, Isaiah 1:14 Isaiah 54:5 Isaiah 5:24, Psalms 89:18 Psalms 71:22, Isaiah 30:15, Luke 4:34 Isaiah 12:6 Isaiah 17:7 Isaiah 30:11, Isaiah 49:7, Isaiah 43:14, 2 Kings 19:22, Jeremiah 51:5 Isaiah 41:16, Isaiah 30:12, Isaiah 47:4, Isaiah 48:17, Isaiah 10:20 Jeremiah 50:29, Isaiah 55:5, Psalms 78:14, Isaiah 41:20, Isaiah 7:23 Isaiah 31:1:clap
     
  19. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi AV1611

    The entire debate is surrounded by the creation of myths by the authority claimed by the Bishops of Rome in the first century and those who followed after. What is unraveling here is the Central Church eventually placing itself as the supreme authority by apponting Jesus to the position of God. Jesus wanted to connect everyone with the Holy Spirit on an individual basis. I think that everyone agrees that the Central Church got in the way and wanted to dictate to the populace how they would believe. What better way to calim supreme authority than to place yourself in between God and Man.
     
  20. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi Chariot of Fire,

    I like where you are going with this. Does Jesus have to be God for His word to be that of God? Certainly not. Was Jesus saying that it is possible for a Man, (or Woman) to be one with the Holy Spirit? He certainly was. This means that you don't have to be God to know the Holy Spirit. As a Prophet, Jesus was showing the way. He didn't like what was going on in the Temple and he certainly wouldn't have approved of what the Central Church became in the 3rd and 4th centuries. The very establishment that he was opposed to appropriated His name to further its own doctrine.
     
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