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Is the Trinity Biblical?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Green Gaia, May 24, 2004.

  1. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    The belief that God is one substance, yet three persons, is one of the central doctrines of the Christian religion. The concept of the Trinity is believed by most professing Christians, whether Catholic or Protestant.

    Where does the Bible show that God is a mysterious Trinity? Where did this doctrine come from and what is it's history? Who was Jesus Christ? Did He live such a perfect life that God decided to call Him His Son at baptism OR was He God who became a man and died for all men?Is the Holy Spirit a PERSON--and can you prove it?
     
  2. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    I'll give it a shot, Maize.

    I have a problem with the 'doctrine' of the Trinity' myself, but I cannot deny that Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit (together with the Father) are all said (or equated) to be God in the New Testament.

    I'll be back soon. :hi:
     
  3. Redeemed of God

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    From the Westminster Confession of Faith
    Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
    I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions;[7] immutable,[8] immense,[9] eternal,[10] incomprehensible,[11] almighty,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most free,[15] most absolute;[16] working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,[17] for His own glory;[18] most loving,[19] gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;[20] the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him;[21] and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments,[22] hating all sin,[23] and who will by no means clear the guilty.[24]
    II. God has all life,[25] glory,[26] goodness,[27] blessedness,[28] in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made,[29] nor deriving any glory from them,[30] but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things;[31] and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases.[32] In His sight all things are open and manifest,[33] His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature,[34] so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain.[35] He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands.[36] To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.[37]
    III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]

    [1] DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord. 1CO 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God by one. 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
    [2] 1TH 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God. JER 10:10 But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting King.
    [3] JOB 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? 8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? 9 The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his ways; but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?
    [4] JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
    [5] 1TI 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    [6] DEU 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. LUK 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
    [7] ACT 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. 15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein.
    [8] JAM 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. MAL 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
    [9] 1KI 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? JER 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
    [10] PSA 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. 1TI 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    [11] PSA 145:3 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
    [12] GEN 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. REV 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
    [13] ROM 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
    [14] ISA 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. REV 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
    [15] PSA 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
    [16] EXO 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
    [17] EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
    [18] PRO 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. ROM 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
    [19] 1JO 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
    [21] HEB 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    [22] NEH 9:32 Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble seem little before thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of Assyria unto this day. 33 Howbeit thou art just in all that is brought upon us; for thou hast done right, but we have done wickedly.
    [23] PSA 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
    [24] NAH 1:2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. 3 The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. EXO 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
    [25] JOH 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.
    [26] ACT 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran.
    [27] PSA 119:68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.
    [28] 1TI 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. ROM 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
    [29] ACT 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things.
    [30] JOB 22:2 Can a man be profitable unto God, as he that is wise may be profitable unto himself? 3 Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or is it gain to him that thou makest thy ways perfect?
    [31] ROM 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
    [32] REV 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. 1TI 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. DAN 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
    [33] HEB 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
    [34] ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? PSA 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
    [35] ACT 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. EZE 11:5 And the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the Lord; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.
    [36] PSA 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. ROM 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    [37] REV 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
    [38] (Traditionally, I John 5:7 is placed here, but we have, for obvious reasons, omitted it in our online edition) MATT 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. MATT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. II COR 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
    [39] JOHN 1:14,18 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    [40] JOHN 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of me. GAL 4:6 And Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
     
  4. Redeemed of God

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    Sorry my internet is messed and sent it a few times...and i cant delete them :- ( .
     
  5. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Taken care of.
     
  6. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    History of the Trinity:

    The ancient idea of monotheism was shattered by the sudden appearance of Jesus Christ on the earth. Here was someone who claimed He was the Son of God. But how could He be? The Jewish people believed for centuries that there was only one God. If the claims of "this Jesus" were accepted, then in their minds their belief would be no different from that of the polytheistic pagans around them. If He were the Son of God, their whole system of monotheism would disintegrate.

    When Jesus plainly told certain Jews of His day that He was the Son of God, some were ready to stone Him for blasphemy (John 10:33).

    To get around the problem of a plurality in the God-head, the Jewish community simply rejected Jesus. And to this day, Orthodox Jews will not accept Jesus' Messiahship. However, the more liberal Jews will at least admit that He was a great man, maybe even a prophet.

    But the "new" Christian religion was still faced with the problem. How would proponents explain that there was only one God, not two?

    "The determining impulse to the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity in the church was the church's profound conviction of the absolute Deity of Christ, on which as on a pivot the whole Christian concept of God from the first origin of Christianity turned" (International Standard Biblical Encyclopedia, article "Trinity," p. 3021).

    Roots in Greek Philosophy:

    Many of the early church fathers were thoroughly educated in Greek philosophy, from which they borrowed such non-biblical concepts as dualism and the immortality of the soul. However, most theologians, for obvious reasons, are generally careful to point out that they did not borrow the idea of the Trinity from the Triads of Greek philosophy or those of the ancient Egyptians and Babylonians.

    But some are not so careful to make such a distinction.

    "Although the notion of a Triad or Trinity is characteristic of the Christian religion, it is by no means peculiar to it. In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the Trinitarian group of Brahma, Siva, and Visnu; and the Egyptian religion with the Trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus, constituting a divine family, like the Father, Mother and Son in medieval Christian pictures. Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality, which was suggested by Plato..." (Hasting's Bible Dictionary, Vol. 12, p. 458).
    Of course, the fact that someone else had a Trinity does not in itself mean that the Christians borrowed it. McClintock and Strong make the connection a little clearer.

    "Toward the end of the 16t century, and during the 2nd, many learned men came over both from Judaism and paganism to Christianity. These brought with them into the Christian schools of theology their Platonic ideas and phraseology" (article "Trinity," Vol. 10, p. 553).
    In his book, A History of Christian Thought, Arthur Cushman McGiffert points out that the main argument against those who believed that there was only one God and that Christ was either an adopted or a created being was that their idea did not agree with Platonic philosophy. Such teachings were

    "offensive to theologians particularly to those who felt the influence of the Platonic philosophy" (ibid., p.240).
    In the latter half of the third century, Paul of Samosata tried to revive the adoptionist idea that Jesus was a mere man until the Spirit of God came upon Him at baptism making him the Anointed One, or Christ. In his beliefs about the person of Jesus Christ, he:

    "rejected the Platonic realism which underlay most of the Christological speculation of the day" (ibid., p. 243).
    At the end of his chapter on the Trinity, McGiffert concludes:

    ". . . It has been the boast of orthodox theologians that in the doctrine of the Trinity both religion and philosophy come to highest expression" (Vol. I, p. 247).

    The influence of Platonic philosophy on the Trinity doctrine can hardly be denied. However, Trinitarian ideas go much further back than Plato:

    "Though it is usual to speak of the Semitic tribes as monotheistic; yet it is an undoubted fact that more or less all over the world the deities are in triads. This rule applies to eastern and western hemispheres, to north and south. Further, it is observed that, in some mystical way, the triad of three persons is one.... The definition of Athanasius [a fourth-century Christian] who lived in Egypt, applied to the trinities of all heathen religions" (Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought, by James Bonwick, F.R.G.S., p. 396).

    It was Athanasius' formulation for the Trinity which was adopted by the Catholic Church at the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325. Athanasius was an Egyptian from Alexandria and his philosophy was also deeply rooted in Platonism.

    "The Alexandrian catechetical school, which revered Clement of Alexandria and Origen, the greatest theologians of the Greek Church, as its heads, applied the allegorical method to the explanation of Scripture. Its thought was influenced by Plato: its strong point was theological speculation. Athanasius and the three Cappadocians had been included among its members . . ." ( Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church, by Hubert Jedin, p. 29).

    In order to explain the relationship of Christ to God the Father, the church fathers felt that it was necessary to use the philosophy of the day. They obviously thought that their religion would be more palatable if they made it sound like the pagan philosophy that was extant at the time. These men were versed in philosophy, and that philosophy colored their understanding of the Bible.

    It was the doctrine of the Trinity -- colored by the philosophy of the time—that was accepted by the Church in the early part of the fourth century — over three hundred years after Christ's death.

    Even theologians recognize that the Trinity is a creation of the fourth century, not the first!

    "'There is recognition on the part of exegetist and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition —that when one does speak of unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'one God in three persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, article "Trinity," Vol. 14, p. 295).

    The Council of Nicaea:

    It was at the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 that two members of the Alexandrian congregation, Arius, a priest, who believed that Christ was not a God, but a created being; and Athanasius, a deacon who believed that the Father, Son and Spirit are the same being living in a threefold form (or in three relationships, as a man may be at the same time a father, a son and a brother), presented their cases.

    The Council of Nicaea was not called by the church leaders, as one might suppose. It was called by the Emperor Constantine. And he had a far from spiritual reason for wanting to solve the dispute that had arisen.

    "In 325 the Emperor Constantine called an ecclesiastical council to meet at Nicaea in Bithynia. In the hope of securing for his throne the support of the growing body of Christians he had shown them considerable favor and it was to his interest to have the church vigorous and united. The Arian controversy was threatening its unity and menacing its strength. He therefore undertook to put an end to the trouble. It was suggested to him, perhaps by the Spanish bishop Hosius who was influential at court, that if a synod were to meet representing the whole church both east and west, it might be possible to restore harmony. Constantine himself of course neither knew or cared anything about the matter in dispute but he was eager to bring the controversy to a close, and Hosius' advice appealed to him as sound" (A History of Christian Thought, Vol. I, p. 258).
    The decision as to which of the two men the church was to follow was a more or less arbitrary one. Constantine really didn't care which choice was made—all he wanted was a united church. (Arius was banished, but later recalled by Constantine, examined and found to be without heresy.)

    The majority of those present at the council were not ready to take either side in the controversy.

    "A clearly defined standpoint with regard to this problem — the relationship of Christ to God—was held only by the attenuated group of Arians and a far from numerous section of delegates, who adhered with unshaken conviction to the Alexandrian [Athanasius'] view. The bulk of the members occupied a position between these two extremes. They rejected the formulae of Arius, and declined to accept those of his opponents . . . the voting was no criterion of the inward conviction of the council" (Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed., article "Nicaea, Council of," p. 641).

    The council rejected Arius' views, and rightly so, but they had nothing with which to replace it. Thus the ideas of Athanasius—also a minority view—prevailed. The rejection of Arianism was not blanket acceptance of Athanasius. Yet, the church in all the ensuing centuries has been "stuck," so to speak, with the job of upholding— right or wrong—the decision made at Nicaea.

    After the council the Trinity became official dogma in the church, but the controversy did not end. In the next few years more Christians were killed by other Christians over that doctrine than were killed by all the pagan emperors of Rome. Yet, for all the fighting and killing, neither of the two parties had a biblical leg to stand on.
     
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  7. erlopin

    erlopin New Member

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    I believe you Maize because we have that same
    same doctrine as you do. Christian aught to be Monotheistic.

    The Old Testament Prophets Taught that There is only One true God Jehova
    to some Yaweh others call him JAH and others know him as the Father.

    The same as the new Testament Apostles.
    They taught that There is only one true God the Father

    Jesus is sent to us to preach the eternal life.
    John 17:1-4
    THe eternal life is to know the Father the only True God.

    Jesus will not say ONLY if he also is a True God.
    am I right?

    If there are verses in the Bible as if it elevates Jesus Christ
    to being equal with God or being God I suggest let the Bible answer
    it and not your own understanding. This may lead to contradiction and false
    beliefs.

    1Timothy 1:5 says,
    For there is one God and one mediator between God and
    men, the Man Christ Jesus.

    you'll see that Jesus is not preached as God here,
    He is a Man mediating between God and men.
    Therefore he is truly human here and not God.

    The Discourses on the Apostle's Creed wrote by Samuel H. Crock
    quote:
    " Thus for example it was not until 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea that
    the Church defined for us that it was an Article of Faith that Jesus Christ is truly God.

    " In 385 A.D. in the Council of Constantinople the Church defined
    that it was an article of Faith that the Holy Ghost is Truly God.

    Sad to say it is the Council of the Catholic Church taught
    that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are God and not the Holy Bible.


    see "Discourses on the Apostle's Creed by Samuel h. Crock
    for further reference.
     
  8. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Hold up there a minute. I never said Christians should be monotheistic. They can be whatever they want to be, infact they would tell you they are monotheistic, believing in one God with different "personalities," if you will. I'm just questioning where the idea of the Trinity came from, because as I see it, it didn't come from the Bible.
     
  9. Redeemed of God

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    [web:a4050f63cc]http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?keyword=Trinity&entiresite=true[/web:a4050f63cc]
     
  10. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Umm, besides screwing with my browser is that supposed to prove something, Redeemed? :roll:
     
  11. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    From my mind:
    Jehovah God the Father is the Creator,Redeemer and the Regenerator.

    1. He is the Creator,when He was in the infinite state.

    2.He is the Redeemer and Saviour,when He was in the finite state, as the Son of God,under the name Jesus Christ.

    3.He is the Regenerator,because He is the Divine Proceeding,which makes Him the Holy Spirit.

    There is no contradictions.The Old Testament supports those words above.

    I am Jehovah,and besides Me there is no Savior (Isa. 43:11).

    Am not I Jehovah, and there is none besides Me,and there is no Savior besides Me. Look unto Me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth (Isa.45:21,22).

    I am Jehovah thy God,and there is no Savior besides Me (Hos.13:4).

    I Jehovah will give thee for a covenant to the people, for a light of the nations. I am Jehovah, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another (Isa.42:6,8).

    Tell me? Where does the Son of God before creation fit in, when Jehovah God the Father Himself had said those words in the Old Testament?The Son of God from eternity before creation was ideal,not truth,to the church.

    Harry
     
  12. erlopin

    erlopin New Member

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    Trinity is never a monotheistic belief because to them
    there is the GOD the Father, there is the GOD the SOn
    and there is the GOD the HOLY SPIRIT. How lunatic
    it is to believe that they are one but three.
    simple arithmetic man. the Bible says that
    there is only one true GOD and that is the Father,
    not the son
    not the holy spirit
    only the father.

    Nowhere in the Bible can you find that the HOLY SPIRIT is
    GOD also word for word.
     
  13. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    These three, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are the three essentials of one God, and they make one as soul, body,and operation make one in man.

    Every person has a trinity in them,made up of the soul,body and operation.Our trinity is human.The Trinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ is Divine.

    The infinite,which is the Father can not be approach directly. Only in His finite form,which is the Son can He be approached.

    That's why the Lord commanded us to take up the cross and follow Him.He didn't say follow the Father.

    The Father is the Soul of the Son.That's why the Lord said in John ,"The Father and I are one." They are one as Soul and Body. The Father and Son are the same and one Person.They are not two persons. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the one that should be approach,because He is the Father in the finite.Get to know the Lord,and you get to know the Father. No one comes to the Father,but only by the Lord, just as You can not know a person's soul until you see how the person behaves.

    Jesus Christ is God,because He the Father in the Finite,which is the Human.

    Harry
     
  14. erlopin

    erlopin New Member

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    You said
    These three, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are
    the three essentials of one God

    I'll just read one verse in the Bible if it's ok
    with you.

    IN 1Timothy 1:5
    For there is one God and one mediator between
    God and men the Man Christ Jesus.

    In this verse How many God can you read.
    You'll just tell me how many
    God can you read in this verse. It's simple. ok
    now tell me.
     
  15. quick

    quick Member

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    Here is 1 Tim 1:5--

    5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

    What verse are you trying to quote?
     
  16. quick

    quick Member

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    The Westminster Confession quote above covers it, but if you want to see the Trinity mentioned in the Bible in the same sentence, well, here you go:

    Matthew 28

    19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

    This was the risen Christ speaking to his disciples at the end of the book of Matthew.
     
  17. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    One God.Jehovah God became Man under the name Jesus Christ. The mediator is the Human Jehovah God has assumed in the world. It is also meant by His right hand.

    Harry
     
  18. Corban

    Corban Member

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    [1] "DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."

    But how is He one, look at John 17:21, "that they may be one as were are one" if that is how they are one then did the apostles lose their bodies and become one with God, no, they are one in purpose

    "1CO 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God by one. 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

    Notice the word AND: there is one God the Father AND one Lord Jesus Christ



    "[4] JOHN 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

    You grossly misunderstand this verse, this means God is a spiritual being, not worldly, it does not mean He does not have a body, if you apply that meaning to the first part of the verse it has to be applied to the whole verse, the following they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth, so if it refers to not having a body but merely a spirit then those that worship him must leave there bodies and become a spirit to do it.


    [6] DEU 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. .

    I'm glad you brought Moses into this discussion, that is a great example of how God has a body, yes it is true Moses did not see the body of God when he spoke out of the burning bush, but i also did see the body of my mom when i talked to her on the phone today, Moses did see the face of God when he later spoke to Him, Genesis 32:11

    LUK 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Wow, a body, i guess it is true
     
  19. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    "I believe in God the father almighty CREATOR of Heaven and Earth. " Now that is contrary to the Word, which teaches in the Gospel of John, "All things were made by the WORD [Incarnate Jesus] and without the WORD was nothing made that was made." Jehovah God is the Word, and became Man under the name Jesus Christ. Amen

    Harry
     
  20. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    The doctrine of the trinity is a perverse pagan heresy. It was formulated through political strife and warfare in the Catholic church in the 3rd century. The authors of the Bible did not believe in the trinity, and neither do any true Christians.
     
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