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Is the Tanakh for everyone?

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CMike

Well-Known Member
I don't think you can use the idiom of the pot calling the kettle black when I have not singled out any specific group as being uniquely at fault, nor have I excluded myself from among the problems.

In other words, yes, I did use stark and unremitting terms to describe the magnitude of the problem facing the Jewish People, with all the various movements or groups demonstrating particular and extremely problematic issues of their own-- problematic issues from which, again, I by no means claim exclusion.

But if we do not accept and confront the problems among us-- among all of us-- how are we to work on solving them? Lashon hara would be to speak only of the problems of another. But tochechah-- tochechah for all of us, ourselves included-- requires blunt words.

What will be aided by pretending these problems don't exist, or pretending that they are less than they are, or that some of us are unaffected?

It is true that we need to work on tolerance and respect among us-- I believe that deeply. But it's also true that for that to be of real effect, we need to admit and confront the problems within our own communities and movements, not shy away from them.

It's rather hypocritical to state that we have to be respectful to other jews, and a paragraph later trash the jewish movements that you disagree with.

That said I do believe that Charedi should serve in the Israeli military.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
"It is not your responsibility to finish the work of perfecting the world, but you are not free to desist from it either."

- Rabbi Tarfon, Pirke Avot 2:21

That's not nice. At least indicate somehow that you are making up the quote.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
G-d called us a light unto the nations. I'm sure G-d knew that the people Israel had problems, flaws, and issues at the time He said that. I don't think the fact that we have problems, precludes us from being a light unto the nations.

God called on us to be a light unto the nations. It's a goal, something we should work to do, not something we already innately are.

I'm quite sure God knew that we had problems, flaws, and issues-- not just at the time He said it, but from then to now and until who knows when.

Those problems, flaws, and issues shouldn't preclude us from trying to overcome them, in order to fulfill our potential, and be what God asked us to be. But I think it would be foolish of us at best, hypocritical at worst, were we to assume that we can and should be a model and a guide to those around us based on our current behavior.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
It's rather hypocritical to state that we have to be respectful to other jews, and a paragraph later trash the jewish movements that you disagree with.

I don't think I "trashed" anyone, but if I did any trashing, it was non-exclusive: those I mostly disagree with, and those I mostly agree with alike. Nobody is free of issues to address or problems to confront: neither the movements I reject being part of, nor the movement of which I actually am a part.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
God called on us to be a light unto the nations. It's a goal, something we should work to do, not something we already innately are.

I'm quite sure God knew that we had problems, flaws, and issues-- not just at the time He said it, but from then to now and until who knows when.

Those problems, flaws, and issues shouldn't preclude us from trying to overcome them, in order to fulfill our potential, and be what God asked us to be. But I think it would be foolish of us at best, hypocritical at worst, were we to assume that we can and should be a model and a guide to those around us based on our current behavior.

Think about it some more. G-d said we can be a light unto the nations without us being perfect. G-d told us that we are a model, and that is DESPITE our never ending effort of working on our problems and flaws. Thus we can always be a light unto the nations at any time. It is by working on our problems that we are a model, not by attaining any impossible goal.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Think about it some more. G-d said we can be a light unto the nations without us being perfect. G-d told us that we are a model, and that is DESPITE our never ending effort of working on our problems and flaws. Thus we can always be a light unto the nations at any time. It is by working on our problems that we are a model, not by attaining any impossible goal.

The moment we consign that goal to impossibility, we assure it can never be achieved.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
God called on us to be a light unto the nations. It's a goal, something we should work to do, not something we already innately are.

I'm quite sure God knew that we had problems, flaws, and issues-- not just at the time He said it, but from then to now and until who knows when.

Those problems, flaws, and issues shouldn't preclude us from trying to overcome them, in order to fulfill our potential, and be what God asked us to be. But I think it would be foolish of us at best, hypocritical at worst, were we to assume that we can and should be a model and a guide to those around us based on our current behavior.

We are not perfect. G-D made us. He knows we are human.

We are supposed to be a light and an example for the world. We don't need to become perfect before doing so.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I don't think I "trashed" anyone, but if I did any trashing, it was non-exclusive: those I mostly disagree with, and those I mostly agree with alike. Nobody is free of issues to address or problems to confront: neither the movements I reject being part of, nor the movement of which I actually am a part.

You called charedi "dead weight", that sounds like you are trashing them to me.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
We are not perfect. G-D made us. He knows we are human.

We are supposed to be a light and an example for the world. We don't need to become perfect before doing so.

I don't recall ever saying we had to be perfect. Just that we should generally exhibit behavior worth modeling.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What we have seen happen with Israel over the last half a century, matched with what Jews have managed to accomplish overall worldwide over the last couple of centuries, is nothing short of remarkable, imo. However, that doesn't mean we don't have our warts or that these warts are insignificant. Sometimes success itself can breed problems within our own communities, and we definitely has seen quite a bit of that.

We're still very much a work in progress, but when I look at the fact that most Muslems living in Israel, even though they can leave, are still staying, that's gotta tell us something. And when I look at the list of Nobel Prize winners and also all of those Jews who have leadership positions in movements that help humankind, that's gotta tell us something as well.

But, OTOH, we need to beware of both personal and cultural arrogance, and sometimes we're not too good at holding those in check. Also, I love visiting Israel, but there's some really serious issues there in a variety of areas as I think we're all aware of.

Personally, I'm not much of a rah-rah type of guy as I typically focus in on what should be done to improve things, but we've made some really good progress in spite of the many warts, so let's work on fixing those, and this begins with me fixing my own warts.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
What does it mean to you?

I could write a book on the subject....cliffnotes version? I think it means the Jewish people should exemplify what a relationship with God entails, both the highs of such a relationship (worship, selflessness, etc) and the lows (the mistakes and how one overcomes them). A light, however, dim, may be useful in guiding those who are lost in the darkness to their destination.

In the same way, the Jews should exemplify what it means to really "struggle with God." For the observant it could be manifested in the strict attentiveness to halakhic performance of ritual despite the demanding requirements of productive living in the modern world. For the non-observant, the heathen even, it could be manifested in the search for truth based on empiricism and rationality.



I would say to be a living example of the precepts as set forth in the Torah. Although, I would add that I'm not really sure that this light unto the nations is something that we are meant to be now as much as something we will be after the Redemption.

So then what would you say is the desired effect of the light? If HaShem wants the Jews to be a light to the nations, what is He hoping the response of the nations will be?
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Good for you, Akivah. Sometimes you have to stand up against your Rabbi when he is wrong ! You have gained my respect !


Levite, I used that phrase (i.e. Pot, meet kettle) because you said "We should have tolerance and respectful differences of opinion" Then a few sentence later, you call the charedi "dead-weight", "the far left is a mess of appalling ignorance ", and the far right is "a mess of oppressive sexism and perversion". Your words demonstrate a complete lack of respectful differences of opinion.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Levite, why can't you acknowledge that Akivah has a valid point here ? Your defensive response makes no sense anyway. Why not admit you were rude, and say you won't do it again ?

Saying: "the far left is a mess of appalling ignorance", is actually quite rude, and incorrect as well.


I don't think you can use the idiom of the pot calling the kettle black when I have not singled out any specific group as being uniquely at fault, nor have I excluded myself from among the problems.

In other words, yes, I did use stark and unremitting terms to describe the magnitude of the problem facing the Jewish People, with all the various movements or groups demonstrating particular and extremely problematic issues of their own-- problematic issues from which, again, I by no means claim exclusion.

But if we do not accept and confront the problems among us-- among all of us-- how are we to work on solving them? Lashon hara would be to speak only of the problems of another. But tochechah-- tochechah for all of us, ourselves included-- requires blunt words.

What will be aided by pretending these problems don't exist, or pretending that they are less than they are, or that some of us are unaffected?

It is true that we need to work on tolerance and respect among us-- I believe that deeply. But it's also true that for that to be of real effect, we need to admit and confront the problems within our own communities and movements, not shy away from them.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
Levite, why can't you acknowledge that Akivah has a valid point here ? Your defensive response makes no sense anyway. Why not admit you were rude, and say you won't do it again ?

Once again, you are dramatically missing my point.

Saying: "the far left is a mess of appalling ignorance", is actually quite rude, and incorrect as well.

But you'll take my critiques of the middle and the right? Nope, I'm not playing favorites here.

I have friends and people I love all over the spectrum, and I myself have occupied right, left, and center at varying times in my life. This is not about being rude, it's about being honest. And if you really think the majority of people on the far left are not breathtakingly ignorant of Jewish text, language, and tradition (or corresponding critiques of right and center), then you must move through life with a rose-colored blindfold on.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Once again, you are dramatically missing my point.



But you'll take my critiques of the middle and the right? Nope, I'm not playing favorites here.

I have friends and people I love all over the spectrum, and I myself have occupied right, left, and center at varying times in my life. This is not about being rude, it's about being honest. And if you really think the majority of people on the far left are not breathtakingly ignorant of Jewish text, language, and tradition (or corresponding critiques of right and center), then you must move through life with a rose-colored blindfold on.

Pot, kettle
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Once again, you are dramatically missing my point. [snip]

This is not about being rude, it's about being honest.

It seems to me that you are the one missing the point. One can be honest WITHOUT being rude.

For instance, instead of labeling some people as being "dead-weight", you could say "IMO they are evading their responsibilities as citizens". The message is given without being rude.
 
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Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
It seems to me that you are the one missing the point. One can be honest WITHOUT being rude.

For instance, instead of labeling some people as being "dead-weight", you could say "IMO they are evading their responsibilities as citizens". The message is given without being rude.

Your on a roll, dude, keep 'em comin' !
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
I have friends and people I love all over the spectrum,
"Some of my best friends are Orthodox", :D

and I myself have occupied right, left, and center at varying times in my life.
Can't make up your mind, eh ?

This is not about being rude, it's about being honest. And if you really think the majority of people on the far left are not breathtakingly ignorant of Jewish text, language, and tradition (or corresponding critiques of right and center),
Of course, were all idiots on the far left :D (Pot, kettle).


then you must move through life with a rose-colored blindfold on.
:cool:
 
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