Is the Tanakh for everyone?

[Akivah]

I think we have a long, long way to go.

Right now, we can't even establish tolerance and respectful differences of opinions between ourselves, let alone with others.

Pot...meet kettle.

 

[Tumah]

What does it mean for the Jews to be a light unto the nations?

I would say to be a living example of the precepts as set forth in the Torah. Although, I would add that I'm not really sure that this light unto the nations is something that we are meant to be now as much as something we will be after the Redemption.

 

[CMike]

What does it mean for the Jews to be a light unto the nations?

Being an example.

 

[Levite]

Pot...meet kettle.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

 

[Avi1001]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

The term "Pot...meet Kettle", comes from "The Pot Calling the Kettle Black". I am also interested in what Akiva meant ? But if he meant it like I think he does, I agree .

 

[CMike]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

I understands what he means.

You asked.

You mentioned quarrelling. However, you are probably the biggest critic of jews whom disagrees with your version of judaism.

 

[Avi1001]

CMike, amazing, I agree with you and Akiva on this !

Levite can dish out big time, but squeals when he gets it back.

Being an on-line Rabbi is a new deal, it looks like he has a little to learn .

Anyway, no one here is perfect, even Metis makes a mistake every century or so !

And I make mistakes every sentence, so who am I to talk.

I understands what he means.

You asked.

You mentioned quarrelling. However, you are probably the biggest critic of jews whom disagrees with your version of judaism.

 

[CMike]

He asked.

 

[Avi1001]

He asked.

And you told him, big guy ! No more Manishevitz for you !

 

[Levite]

I understands what he means.

You asked.

You mentioned quarrelling. However, you are probably the biggest critic of jews whom disagrees with your version of judaism.

First of all, I did not in any way exempt myself from that critique of the Jewish People. How could I? I said "we." I meant "we," as in all of us, myself included.

Second of all, my problem isn't with disagreement per se, it's with the lack of tolerance and respectful disagreement.

I am sure you will now say that I have not been respectful in my disagreement, which may or may not be the case. But my disagreement, and the disagreement of most non-Orthodox Jews like myself comes in reaction to being told by Orthodoxy that we are completely inauthentic and have no right to practice Judaism as we believe is proper. This is especially true in Israel, where the charedi world wields great political influence against us. When I have encountered Orthodox Jews who are willing to be tolerant and to disagree respectfully, I have done my best to return in kind what I have been shown.

I don't recall instances of non-Orthodox Jews wielding influence and power to try and force Orthodox Jews to stop being Orthodox, or to deny their authenticity.

If my anger at that sometimes comes out, so be it. I never claimed to be a tzaddik. And I never claimed to be free of the errors that I pointed out in the Jewish People as a whole.

Should I be trying to do better? Of course. But I'm not the only one.

Hence my saying: we're a long way away.

 

[dantech]

First of all, I did not in any way exempt myself from that critique of the Jewish People. How could I? I said "we." I meant "we," as in all of us, myself included.

Second of all, my problem isn't with disagreement per se, it's with the lack of tolerance and respectful disagreement.

I am sure you will now say that I have not been respectful in my disagreement, which may or may not be the case. But my disagreement, and the disagreement of most non-Orthodox Jews like myself comes in reaction to being told by Orthodoxy that we are completely inauthentic and have no right to practice Judaism as we believe is proper. This is especially true in Israel, where the charedi world wields great political influence against us. When I have encountered Orthodox Jews who are willing to be tolerant and to disagree respectfully, I have done my best to return in kind what I have been shown.

I don't recall instances of non-Orthodox Jews wielding influence and power to try and force Orthodox Jews to stop being Orthodox, or to deny their authenticity.

If my anger at that sometimes comes out, so be it. I never claimed to be a tzaddik. And I never claimed to be free of the errors that I pointed out in the Jewish People as a whole.

Should I be trying to do better? Of course. But I'm not the only one.

Hence my saying: we're a long way away.

I agree with everything here. People should stop with the witty remarks, and impolite criticism. Isn't there a way we could all debate about different topics, while still being polite? I seem to recall that this is exactly the way it was, only a little while back.

For some reason, lately, most of us have lost patience, and have replied to each other, as well as others (mostly Christians) impolitely. Shouldn't we all work on fixing that? Or do some of you believe there's nothing that needs fixing.

 

[Tarheeler]

I agree with everything here. People should stop with the witty remarks, and impolite criticism. Isn't there a way we could all debate about different topics, while still being polite? I seem to recall that this is exactly the way it was, only a little while back.

For some reason, lately, most of us have lost patience, and have replied to each other, as well as others (mostly Christians) impolitely. Shouldn't we all work on fixing that? Or do some of you believe there's nothing that needs fixing.

You're right, on all points.

I participate on several forums, and this is usually the one I can rely on for level-headed discussions and mutual respect. We all do seem to run in cycles though, and can have our share of bitterness and curtness (I can get pretty snippy myself); I think it's important that we all try to take a step back every now and then and take a deep breath.

If you think about it, what we have here is pretty amazing: We have a good spectrum of the Jewish world coming together for discussion of both what we share and our differences. We have ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionists, part-time (apparently) atheists, and some of us who are "just Jewish". We have American, European, Canadian, and Israeli Jews; Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Mizrahi.

And through it all the differences, we have one thing in common: We are all am Yisrael. Let's treat each other like it.

 

[dantech]

You're right, on all points.

I participate on several forums, and this is usually the one I can rely on for level-headed discussions and mutual respect. We all do seem to run in cycles though, and can have our share of bitterness and curtness (I can get pretty snippy myself); I think it's important that we all try to take a step back every now and then and take a deep breath.

If you think about it, what we have here is pretty amazing: We have a good spectrum of the Jewish world coming together for discussion of both what we share and our differences. We have ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionists, part-time (apparently) atheists, and some of us who are "just Jewish". We have American, European, Canadian, and Israeli Jews; Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Mizrahi.

And through it all the differences, we have one thing in common: We are all am Yisrael. Let's treat each other like it.

Frubal to you!

 

[CMike]

Frubal to you!

I couldn't frubal him.

 

[CMike]

First of all, I did not in any way exempt myself from that critique of the Jewish People. How could I? I said "we." I meant "we," as in all of us, myself included.

Second of all, my problem isn't with disagreement per se, it's with the lack of tolerance and respectful disagreement.

I am sure you will now say that I have not been respectful in my disagreement, which may or may not be the case. But my disagreement, and the disagreement of most non-Orthodox Jews like myself comes in reaction to being told by Orthodoxy that we are completely inauthentic and have no right to practice Judaism as we believe is proper. This is especially true in Israel, where the charedi world wields great political influence against us. When I have encountered Orthodox Jews who are willing to be tolerant and to disagree respectfully, I have done my best to return in kind what I have been shown.

I don't recall instances of non-Orthodox Jews wielding influence and power to try and force Orthodox Jews to stop being Orthodox, or to deny their authenticity.

If my anger at that sometimes comes out, so be it. I never claimed to be a tzaddik. And I never claimed to be free of the errors that I pointed out in the Jewish People as a whole.

Should I be trying to do better? Of course. But I'm not the only one.

Hence my saying: we're a long way away.

Who here has said that you have no right to practice Judaism as you know it?

 

[Akivah]

I think we have a long, long way to go.

Right now, we can't even establish tolerance and respectful differences of opinions between ourselves, let alone with others.

Levite, I used that phrase (i.e. Pot, meet kettle) because you said "We should have tolerance and respectful differences of opinion" Then a few sentence later, you call the charedi "dead-weight", "the far left is a mess of appalling ignorance ", and the far right is "a mess of oppressive sexism and perversion". Your words demonstrate a complete lack of respectful differences of opinion.

 

[Akivah]

(snip)

I think it's important that we all try to take a step back every now and then and take a deep breath.

(snip)
And through it all the differences, we have one thing in common: We are all am Yisrael. Let's treat each other like it.

Frubals bestowed!

I have differences of opinion with both Reform and Orthodox, however it is important to tone back the rhetoric and flaming. Tikkum Olam starts with each of us.

 

[Levite]

Levite, I used that phrase (i.e. Pot, meet kettle) because you said "We should have tolerance and respectful differences of opinion" Then a few sentence later, you call the charedi "dead-weight", "the far left is a mess of appalling ignorance ", and the far right is "a mess of oppressive sexism and perversion". Your words demonstrate a complete lack of respectful differences of opinion.

I don't think you can use the idiom of the pot calling the kettle black when I have not singled out any specific group as being uniquely at fault, nor have I excluded myself from among the problems.

In other words, yes, I did use stark and unremitting terms to describe the magnitude of the problem facing the Jewish People, with all the various movements or groups demonstrating particular and extremely problematic issues of their own-- problematic issues from which, again, I by no means claim exclusion.

But if we do not accept and confront the problems among us-- among all of us-- how are we to work on solving them? Lashon hara would be to speak only of the problems of another. But tochechah-- tochechah for all of us, ourselves included-- requires blunt words.

What will be aided by pretending these problems don't exist, or pretending that they are less than they are, or that some of us are unaffected?

It is true that we need to work on tolerance and respect among us-- I believe that deeply. But it's also true that for that to be of real effect, we need to admit and confront the problems within our own communities and movements, not shy away from them.

 

[Akivah]

G-d called us a light unto the nations. I'm sure G-d knew that the people Israel had problems, flaws, and issues at the time He said that. I don't think the fact that we have problems, precludes us from being a light unto the nations.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

G-d called us a light unto the nations. I'm sure G-d knew that the people Israel had problems, flaws, and issues at the time He said that.

The Tanakh is a tapestry of "problems, flaws, and issues."

I don't think the fact that we have problems, precludes us from being a light unto the nations.

"It is not your responsibility to finish the work of perfecting the world, but you are not free to desist from it either."

- Rabbi Tarfon, Pirke Avot 2:21