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Featured Is the Quran the same as the Gospels, New Testament and the Bible at large (Its a Bahai claim)?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Jun 9, 2021.

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  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    This thread is the result of a particular theme that the Bahai's claim to, that as the topic reads, the Bible is the same as the Quran. Though the Bahai's claim the Quran is Gods revelation, when a discussion comes up about the Bible they tend to say it is the same as the Quran. Thus it is valid to understand how they understand them to be the same.

    Note: When I say "the same" it doesn't mean it's the same text, but the same in authenticity.

    I would like to understand why and how they make this claim. We can discuss manuscript evidence, text based dating, chains of narration, textual criticism, any other type of criticism that they apply to make this assertion.

    Peace.
     
  2. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    The short answer to your question about whether or not the authenticity of the Quran and the Bible are the same......No.

    Here’s a few key comments made by Shoghi Effendi on this important issue:

    Though the Bahá'í Writings unequivocally uphold the divine inspiration of the Bible, the greater authenticity of the Qur'án, despite what some scholars might say, might be for Bahá'ís another important incentive to study the Qur'án (though it is certainly not worth becoming a matter for contention in discussions with Christians).

    "The Qur'án is...more authoritative than any previous religious gospel..."
    (On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, quoted in Lights of Guidance, vol. iii, p. 498)

    "The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'án, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh." (On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, quoted in Lights of Guidance, vol. iii., p. 502)

    "In regard to your question concerning the authenticity of the Qur'án. I have referred it to the Guardian for his opinion. He thinks that the Qur'án is, notwithstanding the opinion of certain historians, quite authentic, and that consequently it should be considered in its entirety by every faithful and loyal believer as the sacred scriptures of the Muhammadan Revelation." (From a letter dated July 6, 1934 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)

    The Qur'án
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Then why do you and other Bahai's eternally, every thread, every time, almost with out an exception, make this comparison Effendi tells you not to?
     
  4. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I quote Bahaullah about this:


    "How could God, when once the Daystar
    of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?
    What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the daystar of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could
    the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!"

    Book of Iqan
     
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thanks. But it doesn't contribute anything to the thread.
     
  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    There are severe corruptions in the Bible for example what it states about Talut, slavery, and other things, goes against reason, it's central theme, and also Quran refutes it.
     
  7. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Most of it is intact and from God though <3.
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    What is this "Most of it"? And whats the methodology of authentication?
     
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  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Why not? Baha'u'llah clearly said why the Gospels has to be legitimate and it had to be a sufficient Guide for people while the Quran had not been revealed. God does not leave mankind without a guiding scripture at anytime, for this is how He provides His message and guidance for people.
    You are asking for Bahai view, and I think it was given here.

    However, obviously the style of writing of Gospels is different than the Quran. Gospels appear to be recorded traditions about Jesus and His disciples. Quran appears as if God is speaking to Muhammad through an angel for the most part. So, different Books.
     
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  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    So whats your contention? The Quran and the Gospels are the same in authenticity?
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You must understand that Bahaullah is not God to me. So making arguments like "because Bahaullah says so" is invalid to me. Maybe valid to all the Bahai's. Thus, that argument is absolutely invalid.

    If you have scholarship presented by Bahaullah or anyone for that matter, one could consider this scholarship. "BECAUSE I SAY SO" is not a valid presentation.

    Hope you understand.
     
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  12. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Read the following prayer from Imam Sajjad (a) about completing a recitation from Quran, he teaches to pray as follows:

    O God,
    Thou hast helped me complete Thy Book,
    which Thou sent down as a light153 and appointed as
    a guardian over every book Thou hast sent down,154
    preferring it over every narrative
    which Thou hast recounted,155

    a separator, through which Thou hast separated
    Thy lawful from Thy unlawful,156
    a Qur'an, through which Thou hast made plain
    the approaches to Thy ordinances,157
    a book, which Thou hast distinguished very distinctly
    for Thy servants,158
    a revelation, which Thou hast sent down,
    a sending down,
    upon Thy prophet Muhammad159
    (Thy blessings be upon him and his Household).

    Thou appointed it
    a light through following which
    we may be guided from the shadows
    of error and ignorance,160
    a healing for him
    who turns ear toward hearing it
    with the understanding of attestation,161
    a just balance
    whose tongue does not incline away from truth,162
    a light of guidance
    whose proof is not extinguished before
    the witnesses,163
    and a guidepost of deliverance, so that
    he who repairs straightway to its prescription
    will not go astray
    and he who clings to its preservation's handhold
    will not be touched by the hands of disasters.


    O God,
    since Thou hast given us help to recite it
    and made smooth the roughness of our tongues
    through the beauty of its expression,
    place us among those who
    observe it as it should be observed,
    serve Thee by adhering in submission
    to the firm text of its verses,
    and seek refuge in admitting both its ambiguous parts
    and the elucidations of its clear signs!

    O God,
    Thou sent it down upon Thy prophet Muhammad
    (God bless him and his household) in summary form,
    Thou inspired him with the science of its wonders
    to complement it,
    Thou made us the heirs of its knowledge
    as interpreters,164
    Thou made us to surpass
    him who is ignorant of its knowledge,
    and Thou gave us strength over it
    to raise us above those not able to carry it.

    O God,
    just as Thou hast appointed our hearts
    as its carriers
    and made known to us through Thy mercy
    its nobility and excellence,
    so also bless Muhammad, its preacher,
    and his Household, its guardians,
    and place us among those who confess that it has come from Thee,
    lest doubt about attesting to it assail us,
    or deviation from its straightforward path shake us!



    O God,
    bless Muhammad and his Household
    and make us one of those who
    hold fast to its cord,
    seek haven from its ambiguities in its
    fortified stronghold,
    rest in the shadow of its wing,
    find guidance in the brightness of its morning,
    follow the shining of its disclosure,
    acquire light from its lamp,
    and beg not guidance from any other!



    O God,
    just as through it
    Thou hast set up Muhammad as a guidepost to point to Thee
    and through his Household
    Thou hast made clear Thy good pleasure's roads to Thee,
    so also bless Muhammad and his Household
    and make the Qur'an
    our mediation to the noblest stations
    of Thy honour,
    a ladder by which we may climb
    to the place of safety,
    a cause for our being repaid
    with deliverance at the Plain of Resurrection,
    and a means whereby we may reach
    the bliss of the House of Permanence!



    O God,
    bless Muhammad and his Household,
    lessen for us through the Qur'an the weight of heavy sins,
    give to us the excellent qualities of the pious,
    and make us follow the tracks of those who stood before Thee
    in the watches of the night and the ends of the day,165
    such that Thou purifiest us from every defilement
    through its purification
    and makest us to follow the tracks of those
    who have taken illumination from its light
    and whom expectation has not distracted from works,
    cutting them off through its delusions' deceptions!



    O God,
    bless Muhammad and his Household
    and appoint the Qur'an
    for us an intimate
    in the shadows of nights
    and a guardian
    against the instigations of Satan
    and confusing thoughts,
    for our feet an obstruction
    from passing to acts of disobedience,
    for our tongues a silencer without blight
    preventing a plunge into falsehood,
    for our limbs a restrainer
    from committing sins,
    and for the scrutiny of heedfulness
    rolled up in heedlessness
    an unroller,
    such that Thou attachest to our hearts
    the understanding of the Qur'an's wonders
    and its restraining similitudes
    which immovable mountains in all their solidity
    were too weak to carry!166



    O God,
    bless Muhammad and his Household
    and through the Qur'an
    make permanent the rightness
    of our outward selves,
    veil the ideas of confusing thoughts
    from the soundness of our innermost minds,
    wash away the dirt of our hearts
    and the ties of our heavy sins,
    gather our scattered affairs,
    quench the thirst of our burning heat
    in the standing place of the presentation to Thee,
    and clothe us in the robes of security
    on the Day of the Greatest Terror at our uprising!167

    O God,
    bless Muhammad and his Household
    and through the Qur'an
    redress our lack - our destitution in poverty -
    drive toward us the comforts of life
    and an abundance of plentiful provisions,
    turn aside blameworthy character traits
    and base moral qualities,
    and preserve us from the pit of unbelief
    and the motives for hypocrisy,
    such that the Qur'an may be
    for us at the resurrection a leader
    to Thy good pleasure and Thy gardens,
    for us in this world a protector
    against Thy displeasure and transgressing
    Thy bounds
    and for what is with Thee a witness
    by its declaring lawful the lawful
    and its declaring unlawful the unlawful!



    O God,
    bless Muhammad and his Household
    and through the Qur'an make easy for our souls at death
    the distress of the driving,168
    the effort of the moaning,
    and the succession of the rattling,
    when souls reach the throats
    and it is said, 'Where is the enchanter?';169
    when the angel of death discloses himself
    to seize them from behind the veils of unseen things,
    letting loose at them from the bow of destinies
    the arrows of the terror of lonesome separation,
    and mixing for them from sudden death
    a cup poisoned to the taste;
    and when departure and release for the hereafter come close to us,
    works become collars around the necks,170
    and the graves become the haven
    until the appointed time of the Day of Encounter!



    O God,
    bless Muhammad and his Household,
    make blessed for us the arrival at the house of decay
    and the drawn out residence between the layers of the earth,
    appoint the graves, after separation from this world,
    the best of our waystations,
    make roomy for us through Thy mercy the narrowness of our tombs,
    and disgrace us not among those present at the Resurrection
    through our ruinous sins!


    Through the Qur'an
    have mercy upon the lowliness of our station
    at the standing place of presentation to Thee,
    make firm the slips of our feet
    during the shaking of the bridge across hell
    on the day of passage over it,
    illuminate the darkness of our graves
    before the Uprising,
    and deliver us from every distress on the Day of Resurrection
    and from the hardships of terrors on the Day of Disaster!

    Whiten our faces
    on the day when the faces of wrongdoers are blackened171
    during the Day of Regret and Remorse,
    appoint love for us in the breasts of the faithful,
    and make not life for us troublesome!



    O God,
    bless Muhammad, Thy servant and Thy messenger,
    just as He delivered Thy message,
    executed Thy command,
    and counselled Thy servants!



    O God,
    on the Day of Resurrection make our Prophet
    (Thy blessings be upon him and his Household)
    the nearest of the prophets to Thee in seat,
    the ablest of them before Thee with intercession,
    the greatest of them with Thee in measure,
    and the most eminent of them with Thee in rank!



    O God,
    bless Muhammad and the Household of Muhammad,
    ennoble his edifice,
    magnify his proof,
    make weighty his balance,
    accept his intercession,
    bring near his mediation,172
    whiten his face,
    complete his light,
    and raise his degree!



    Make us live according to his Sunna,
    make us die in his creed,
    take us on his road,
    make us travel his path,
    place us among the people who obey him,
    muster us in his band,
    lead us to up his pool,173
    and give us to drink of his cup!



    And bless Muhammad and his Household,
    with a blessing
    through which Thou wilt take him to the most excellent
    of Thy good, Thy bounty, and Thy generosity
    for which he hopes!
    Thou art Possessor of boundless mercy
    and generous bounty.



    O God,
    repay him for
    Thy messages which he delivered,
    Thy signs which he passed on,
    the good counsel he gave to Thy servants,
    and the struggle he undertook in Thy way,
    with the best Thou hast repaid any of Thy angels brought nigh
    and Thy prophets sent out and chosen!
    And upon him and his Household,
    the good, the pure,
    be peace, God's mercy, and His blessings!








    The Quran also a confirmation of what is revealed before, it teaches you how to learn from those texts in the proper way as do the Ahlulbayt (a).

    Signs of God are in the heart of those given knowledge, they are clear and proven to be from God in their hearts.

    This is the way to gain insights from God.

    Quran is a recitation from God but again, it's not the one and only source of God's words. God's words are such that he can prove them to be his words by his words.
     
  13. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I understand that You do not believe in Bahaullah. But we are speaking logically. We are saying why logically Bahaullah is saying it is not possible for God to not leave a legitimate Book after Jesus left the world. How could people be guided then?
     
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  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Again, because "Bahaullah says so" is not valid.
     
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Prayers are not valid brother. Thanks.
     
  16. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    We don’t. However we do emphasis the legitimacy of the Christian Gospel.
     
  17. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

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    This is very tricky because it seems that you are buying into the superstition that all religious scriptures are faultless so without faulty or wrong ideas. Now if you had emphasized that Lord Jesus' historical words were legitimate teachings there would not have been any problem. It seems that you or Bahai is only paying lip service to the sanctity of religious scriptures since religious scriptures always contradict each other here or there.

    Having or showing respect for religious scriptures outside of your own ones is something different from declaring them to be 'legitimate' (whatever that means).
     
    #17 Marcion, Jun 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
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  18. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    If you arguing against people who are from baha'i faith, you expect them to listen to you, and not the baha'i teaching?

    Everyone who are in discussion or debate with you, have to say what you want to hear?
     
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  19. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Where we agree is the focus on the importance of the actual historical words of Jesus. Where we disagree may be the extent to which the Gospel accounts reflect those Words. For Baha’is we can not be certain if the Gospel accounts are word for word those spoken by Christ. However we believe through the Gospel accounts we have all that God wished to convey to humanity at that time.

    The Baha’i approach to the New Testament is nuanced. We don’t undermine its authority or authenticity, but view it differently from both Christians and Muslims.

    How Baha’is view the Quran is quite different and that’s the question asked. The Quran is seen as word for word that which Muhammad spoke.

    Buddhist and Hindu scriptures do not necessarily reflect the Words of Buddha or any deity in Hinduism.

    Its not about lip service, simply stating accurately the Baha’i view.
     
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  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Yes you do. Its always a Tu Quoque fallacy, or a strawman. Predominantly. So in this effort to do a Tu Quoque, most of the Bahai's do the same thing. When the Bible is questioned, they bring up the Quran and say its the same.
     
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