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Is the Quran a "young earther"?

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I was told that since the Qur'an says the "heavens and the earth was created in six days" it is a young earther. The proposing evidence was this statement.

As most would already know and repeatedly heard throughout, this verse says "ayyam" which is a dual-plural term for day.

This is many times referred to a period of time, as in when someone speaks of stages. The language here is called majroor case where the noun is changing the meaning of the qualifying word. Thus, it does not mean one day as in 24 hours. This kind of argument is coming from the biblical background where many people thought that creation happened in six X 24 hour days.

Is there any other argument that shows that the Qur'an is a "young earther"?

Cheers.

Special relativity shows that time dilates at relativistic speeds (speeds close to the speed of light). General relativity shows that time dilates in rapidly accelerating reference frames (such as strong gravitational fields). So, time is not the same for everyone everywhere. Thus, God's time is not necessarily our time.

Science shows how it is possible that in God's time, the universe is 6,000 years old, and in our time, the universe is 13.8 billion years old. So, it is not a matter of defining the term "day," rather it is a matter of determining where God was.

Assuming that God is near a black hole (which is what the universe would have been prior to the big bang), it would be interesting for someone to calculate how strong the gravity was where God was.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Not in wisdom as in spiritual practice
The practice is a personal awakening

That is not making any sense to me. Nor do I see how it is relevant as a response to my post.

I can only repeat myself. If 10 people reading the same text walk away with a different understanding of said text, then clearly there is a problem with clarity of said text.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Special relativity shows that time dilates at relativistic speeds (speeds close to the speed of light). General relativity shows that time dilates in rapidly accelerating reference frames (such as strong gravitational fields). So, time is not the same for everyone everywhere. Thus, God's time is not necessarily our time.

Science shows how it is possible that in God's time, the universe is 6,000 years old, and in our time, the universe is 13.8 billion years old. So, it is not a matter of defining the term "day," rather it is a matter of determining where God was.

Assuming that God is near a black hole (which is what the universe would have been prior to the big bang), it would be interesting for someone to calculate how strong the gravity was where God was.

Brother, the Quranic concept of God is, he not near anything, be it a black hole or any other place or area. But I understand what you say. The thing is, God is not definable according to the Quran. It is not just 1000 days is one day for God, it is also 50000 days for us, which means there is absolutely no definition of a day concept with God.

Also, if you read the OP you would realise that the word Ayyam is not referring to a day. When translating, you dont have a choice but to use the word "day", but think of it this way. It is akin to saying "in the day of Adam" which is not 'one particular day with a morning and evening', rather it is referring to the "time of Adam". I was only using that as an example trying to explain the use of language.

This citing of "day" or the plural "ayyam" as I already explained in the OP does not refer to one day, it is an age, a period.

Hope you understand.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
No, Because each person will understand different

Each person will not understand clear sentences so differently.

There are some sentences that a majority of people understand in a particular way.

e.g. "tomorrow the sun will rise at 6.05 AM".

Most people will understand this to mean what it means. Simple. But some may reinterpret it and understand it to mean something totally different like a philosophical prediction of a future cosmic eschatological occurrence or something. It could happen.

But I would like to see your example in relevance to the topic at hand.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Brother, the Quranic concept of God is, he not near anything, be it a black hole or any other place or area. But I understand what you say. The thing is, God is not definable according to the Quran. It is not just 1000 days is one day for God, it is also 50000 days for us, which means there is absolutely no definition of a day concept with God.

Also, if you read the OP you would realise that the word Ayyam is not referring to a day. When translating, you dont have a choice but to use the word "day", but think of it this way. It is akin to saying "in the day of Adam" which is not 'one particular day with a morning and evening', rather it is referring to the "time of Adam". I was only using that as an example trying to explain the use of language.

This citing of "day" or the plural "ayyam" as I already explained in the OP does not refer to one day, it is an age, a period.

Hope you understand.

Ow, how it would have been so much clearer and avoid so many pointless discussions if this super-intellect would have just said something along the lines of "we created all in 6 stages" or similar, instead of simply piling on with the ambiguous drivel.


You'ld think that "clarity" would be part of the skillset of an all powerful, all-intelligent god, right?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Daniel. Have you read the Qur'an? Just tell me directly.
Yes, cover to cover. The difference between my reading and your reading is that I don't read it with the assumption that it must be correct no matter what. This allows me to approach the text more honestly in my opinion.

The reason I ask this is because you are saying what the Quran doesnt say, and making an argument to the negative based on that.
To the contrary, I am repeating what the Quran does say, which neither you nor your OP have thus far addressed in my opinion. Your OP suggests that the period of days in Quran is an unspecified period for a day in Surah 32:4, but to the contrary in context 32:5 explains that the period of a day is a "thousand years of your reckoning" (ie Earth time) so in context the periods are not unspecified. The Quran later appears to contradict itself in 70:4 when it says a day is 50,000 years, however this is not said in context of the days of creation, so even though I allow for Muslims to interpret off either verse since both are in the Quran, technically in my opinion only one of them is said with respect to the days of creation.

Also, it is you who proposed that the Quran is a young earther. Thus, it is a burden of proof fallacy to ask others to provide details of how it is not.
Actually I proposed that the Quran can be read consistently from a young Earth perspective.


Anyway, if you insist that though I have already explained in the OP, you neglect it, and with no argument against it linguistically, it is six 24 hour days that creation happened, still how could you make it a young earth? Where is the timelines calculated from lets say Adam who was after creation, or the time between creation and Adam?

How could you make a young earther accusation without any of these?
First of all I am saying 6,000 years, not 6 lots of 24 hour time periods. Secondly it would be an inconsistent reading of the text if it was a given that The entire universe and earth where created in 6,000 years to assume that for a relatively trivial task such as the creation of Adam it took signifigant amounts of time longer such as the 3.5 billion years of evolution to occur. But lets just assume that inconsistent reading was intended - that is 6000 years of creation for the universe AND earth then 3.5 billion years for the creation of Adam plus however much between creation and Adam. The Quran would then be demonstrably wrong in my opinion because scientists know the universe took longer than 4-6 thousand years to develop.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
That is not making any sense to me. Nor do I see how it is relevant as a response to my post.

I can only repeat myself. If 10 people reading the same text walk away with a different understanding of said text, then clearly there is a problem with clarity of said text.
We have different understanding of the answer then :)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yes, cover to cover. The difference between my reading and your reading is that I don't read it with the assumption that it must be correct no matter what. This allows me to approach the text more honestly in my opinion.

Yeah. So thanks for the ad hominem, but its good that you have read it cover to cover. Honestly, that's great. But if I turn around and tell you that I am not like you where I read it like this and that but you read it with a presupposition that its utter nonsense altogether right from the outset, it is ad hominem. Also I am thinking I am God to know your mind better than you yourself which is practically an egoistic, arrogant position thinking "I know you better than yourself". Maybe I am also making a facade assumption about you because I am a hypocrite, so obviously I maybe thinking you are one just like me to take a book with a load of preexisting biases and premises so its absolutely no point reading it. This is all useless, so I would not do that.

Since you have read the book well
1. Nevertheless, do you think Ayyam as in the verses you quoted is one 24 hour day, while a 1000 days is one day, while also 50000 years is also one day? What do you think?
2. Since you have already said that creation took 6 days but have ignored the explanation of the language in the OP, do you think that six days happened 6,000 years ago?
3. If you think that these six days was actually 6,000 years because a day is a thousand years like some assumed in this thread, when did that 6,000 years end? Is it still continuing? If the Quran says it happened at a particular time, when it is still 1400 years ago, and it speaks of historical figures like Noah which you have claimed was 4,000 years ago (with no evidence of course other than the non-sequitur "Quran doesnt say it is not"), so was this creation prior to that 4000 years? Which would mean at least 10,000 years? What do you say?
4. Why do you think some people like Ibn Haldhun way before Darwin, in the 14th century interpreted verses in the Quran that speaks of the creation of man as evolution of man with words like "sawwaythuhu" in the verse 15:29 as "turning" not "a magical wand type of creation" practically via simple language and propagated evolution of man in his book?
 
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danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yeah. So thanks for the ad hominem, but its good that you have read it cover to cover. Honestly, that's great. But if I turn around and tell you that I am not like you where I read it like this and that but you read it with a presupposition that its utter nonsense altogether right from the outset, it is ad hominem. Also I am thinking I am God to know your mind better than you yourself which is practically an egoistic, arrogant position thinking "I know you better than yourself". Maybe I am also making a facade assumption about you because I am a hypocrite, so obviously I maybe thinking you are one just like me to take a book with a load of preexisting biases and premises so its absolutely no point reading it. This is all useless, so I would not do that.

Since you have read the book well
1. Nevertheless, do you think Ayyam as in the verses you quoted is one 24 hour day, while a 1000 days is one day, while also 50000 years is also one day? What do you think?
2. Since you have already said that creation took 6 days but have ignored the explanation of the language in the OP, do you think that six days happened 6,000 years ago?
3. If you think that these six days was actually 6,000 years because a day is a thousand years like some assumed in this thread, when did that 6,000 years end? Is it still continuing? If the Quran says it happened at a particular time, when it is still 1400 years ago, and it speaks of historical figures like Noah which you have claimed was 4,000 years ago (with no evidence of course other than the non-sequitur "Quran doesnt say it is not"), so was this creation prior to that 4000 years? Which would mean at least 10,000 years? What do you say?
4. Why do you think some people like Ibn Haldhun way before Darwin, in the 14th century interpreted verses in the Quran that speaks of the creation of man as evolution of man with words like "sawwaythuhu" in the verse 15:29 as "turning" not "a magical wand type of creation" practically via simple language and propagated evolution of man in his book?

1. I think the 6 days in the verses I quoted are symbolic of 6 literal 1000 year periods, as the Quran explains in the context that they are a thousand years "by your reckoning". I think the 50,000 years refers to something different than the days of creation if you read it in context. In my opinion in context the 50,00 years is talking about the time the sky will allegedly become like molten brass and all that, in other words what does it have to do with creation?

2. I have not ignored the explanation of the language in the OP at all in my opinion, I'm pointing out that although it means a day as a period rather than a literal day, it defines the periods as literal thousand year periods, "of your reckoning" ie earth time.

3. I do not know when "creation" is exactly ended according to the Quran, but even if we add 200,000 years to take it back to creation of Adam it will still be a young earth compared to it's actual age of 4.54 billion years in my opinion.

4. Why do you think Ibn Haldun was incapable of post hoc rationalisation? From Surah 15:28-29 at Surah 15. Al-Hijr Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim ;
28
Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from sounding clay from mud molded into shape;

29
"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Does God molding mud into shape then breathing His spirit into it sound familiar to another Quranic story to you? It sure does to me. It reminds me of Jesus bringing a bird to life;

From Surah 5:110
'And behold! thou* makest out of clay as it were the figure of a bird by My leave and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave' *ie Jesus. Do you think in this story it is talking about Jesus causing the bird to evolve? Because the process is identical in my opinion - the creature is formed out of clay and then the spirit breathed into it.

6. In my opinioin historically some Muslims have believed in a young earth, for example Al Tabari who is much closer in time to Muhammad than the 14th century Ibn Haldun states in Tarikh at-Tabari, that the total age of the earth is 7000 years. Sure you may believe that the Hadith Al Tabari based his conclusions on are false, but whilst the Hadith may not trace back to Anas Ibn Malik, that the Hadith exists at all suggests that Muslim/(s) believed in a young Earth at some point historically.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
1. I think the 6 days in the verses I quoted are symbolic of 6 literal 1000 year periods, as the Quran explains in the context that they are a thousand years "by your reckoning". I think the 50,000 years refers to something different than the days of creation if you read it in context. In my opinion in context the 50,00 years is talking about the time the sky will allegedly become like molten brass and all that, in other words what does it have to do with creation?

Thanks for your opinion and stating "what you think". But what you think is absolutely wrong. One thing is, in one its Ayyam, and in the other its Yawm. So this is all just conjecture. I honestly didnt picture you to be a person who just states conjecture so many times. You have a lot of faith. :)

2. I have not ignored the explanation of the language in the OP at all in my opinion, I'm pointing out that although it means a day as a period rather than a literal day, it defines the periods as literal thousand year periods, "of your reckoning" ie earth time.

Then maybe you didnt understand it.

3. I do not know when "creation" is exactly ended according to the Quran, but even if we add 200,000 years to take it back to creation of Adam it will still be a young earth compared to it's actual age of 4.54 billion years in my opinion.

Why 200,000? Just came up with a number to prove your faith that Quran is a young earther? Great.

4. Why do you think Ibn Haldun was incapable of post hoc rationalisation? From Surah 15:28-29 at Surah 15. Al-Hijr Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim ;
28
Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from sounding clay from mud molded into shape;

29
"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Does God molding mud into shape then breathing His spirit into it sound familiar to another Quranic story to you? It sure does to me. It reminds me of Jesus bringing a bird to life;

From Surah 5:110
'And behold! thou* makest out of clay as it were the figure of a bird by My leave and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave' *ie Jesus. Do you think in this story it is talking about Jesus causing the bird to evolve? Because the process is identical in my opinion - the creature is formed out of clay and then the spirit breathed into it.

You absolutely missed the point. That happens to people who make confirmation biases and post hoc ergo propter hoc due to very dogmatic faith.

6. In my opinioin historically some Muslims have believed in a young earth, for example Al Tabari who is much closer in time to Muhammad than the 14th century Ibn Haldun states in Tarikh at-Tabari, that the total age of the earth is 7000 years. Sure you may believe that the Hadith Al Tabari based his conclusions on are false, but whilst the Hadith may not trace back to Anas Ibn Malik, that the Hadith exists at all suggests that Muslim/(s) believed in a young Earth at some point historically.

Thats not relevant.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Thanks for your opinion and stating "what you think". But what you think is absolutely wrong. One thing is, in one its Ayyam, and in the other its Yawm. So this is all just conjecture. I honestly didnt picture you to be a person who just states conjecture so many times. You have a lot of faith. :)

Why don't you highlight which word in which verse is Ayyam, and which word in which verse is Yawm, because your answer here is excessively condensed for talking to someone who does not read Arabic.

Why 200,000? Just came up with a number to prove your faith that Quran is a young earther? Great.
Because modern man appears 200,000 years ago. Which is where it doesn't really make sense to talk about *creation* of man because where do you draw the line in the continuum of evolution and say man has appeared?

You absolutely missed the point. That happens to people who make confirmation biases and post hoc ergo propter hoc due to very dogmatic faith.
All these allegations of dogmatic faith just look like projection to me. You couldn't answer my question about Jesus, the bird and evolution could you?


Thats not relevant.
It's relevance depends on to what degree your Islam accepts innovation in matters of religion. According to my understanding traditional Islam seems to frown upon it. But you seem to take a more modern approach so perhaps its not relevant.

Although I would still add that if the Quran clearly states humans evolved its odd that you can't find a single Muslim evolutionist prior to the 14th century which is relatively late in my opinion.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Because modern man appears 200,000 years ago. Which is where it doesn't really make sense to talk about *creation* of man because where do you draw the line in the continuum of evolution and say man has appeared?

Which verse?

All these allegations of dogmatic faith just look like projection to me. You couldn't answer my question about Jesus, the bird and evolution could you?

Not relevant.

It's relevance depends on to what degree your Islam accepts innovation in matters of religion. According to my understanding traditional Islam seems to frown upon it. But you seem to take a more modern approach so perhaps its not relevant.

Not relevant.

Although I would still add that if the Quran clearly states humans evolved its odd that you can't find a single Muslim evolutionist prior to the 14th century which is relatively late in my opinion.

Haha. Kithab alhayawaan. Not that it matters.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1. Whats the word for create?
2. Read the full article. At least.
1. khāliqun
2. What does kitab al Hayawan say about evolution specifically and in full, and is it the view held by the author or are they simply translations of greek sources?
 
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