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Is the Quran a "young earther"?

firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
danieldemol said:
If you're referring to me I said, "the Quran can be interpreted consistently from a young earth perspective in my opinion."

And challenged you, "I think it would be easier for the reverse to be proven. Find a verse which demonstrates that the earth is older than 6000 years and we will see if it can be interpreted consistently with a young earth."

So far it looks to me as though the only person who even bothered trying to answer the challenge is @Conscious thoughts in post #3, the obvious problem being that even if we allow for each day to be 50,000 years its still a young earth perspective in my opinion.
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1. Why 6,000 years?
2. So again, your argument is "if the Quran doesn't say it is older than 6,000 years, it is "young earth"?

Very intellectual arguments I must say.
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
firedragon said:
1. Why 6,000 years?
2. So again, your argument is "if the Quran doesn't say it is older than 6,000 years, it is "young earth"?...
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1. Because in the Quran it says;
'It is Allah Who has created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days and is firmly established on the Throne (of authority): ye have none besides Him to protect or intercede (for you): will ye not then receive admonition?

He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him on a Day the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.'

Source: Surah 32. As-Sajda Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim v4-5

So going off what is in my opinion explicit in the Quran as opposed to what is in the imaginations of post-hoc rationalisers, a Day could be a thousand years, or it could be 50,000 years. Either way it can be consistently read as referring to a young Earth. Note there is nothing in the Quran which refutes the concept of a young Earth in my opinion.

2. No, it is just reading the Quran without the hindsight of scientific knowledge that was presumably beyond the grasp of the 7th C Arab, to see what it actually says in my opinion, as opposed to what it says when we apply that hindsight with the assumption that the Quran is the word of God and therefore must be true. By comparison your argument seems to be that you don't want the Quran to be wrong, therefore it must be referring to an old earth, which so far as I can tell is just wishful thinking.
 
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firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
danieldemol said:
1. Because in the Quran it says;
'It is Allah Who has created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days and is firmly established on the Throne (of authority): ye have none besides Him to protect or intercede (for you): will ye not then receive admonition?

He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him on a Day the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.'

Source: Surah 32. As-Sajda Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim v4-5

So going off what is in my opinion explicit in the Quran as opposed to what is in the imaginations of post-hoc rationalisers, a Day could be a thousand years, or it could be 50,000 years. Either way it can be consistently read as referring to a young Earth. Note there is nothing in the Quran which refutes the concept of a young Earth in my opinion.
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Answered in the OP.

danieldemol said:
2. No, it is just reading the Quran without the hindsight of scientific knowledge that was presumably beyond the grasp of the 7th C Arab, to see what it actually says in my opinion, as opposed to what it says when we apply that hindsight with the assumption that the Quran is the word of God and therefore must be true. By comparison your argument seems to be that you don't want the Quran to be wrong, therefore it must be referring to an old earth, which so far as I can tell is just wishful thinking.
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Irrelevant.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
danieldemol said:
So going off what is in my opinion explicit in the Quran as opposed to what is in the imaginations of post-hoc rationalisers, a Day could be a thousand years, or it could be 50,000 years. Either way it can be consistently read as referring to a young Earth. Note there is nothing in the Quran which refutes the concept of a young Earth in my opinion.
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Daniel. Have you read the Qur'an? Just tell me directly.

The reason I ask this is because you are saying what the Quran doesnt say, and making an argument to the negative based on that. Thats a non-sequitur. Keeping that aside, if you have read the Quran fully, then you could at least make a claim about what it doesnt say.

Also, it is you who proposed that the Quran is a young earther. Thus, it is a burden of proof fallacy to ask others to provide details of how it is not.

Hope you understand that.

Anyway, if you insist that though I have already explained in the OP, you neglect it, and with no argument against it linguistically, it is six 24 hour days that creation happened, still how could you make it a young earth? Where is the timelines calculated from lets say Adam who was after creation, or the time between creation and Adam?

How could you make a young earther accusation without any of these?
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Conscious thoughts said:
All i can say is what i read in the quran
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Of course.

The Quran says in several places that time is relative. It provides two instances where time is either 1000 days or 50000 years human:God, which is to show us that we have no clue what time for God is. Walam yakullahoo kufuwan ahadun. We are not capable of fathoming God. There is nothing like him. Yet of course, anyone who has not taken the whole book as its own context may not understand how one single verse would apply to the whole book. This is actually called cherry picking and you would see that happening. That is not how things should be understood. Every single verse should be understood in light of the whole book. Some times there could be contradistinctions, and other times there could be contextualisation.

There is a lot. But it would derail the thread.

Peace.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Conscious thoughts said:
Everyone who read the quran will have different understanding of the text
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Generally, what was said here by me are general understanding. I have not so far come across any other understanding of them in Islamic scholarship. And its simple language.

But I would like to hear any other understanding and a linguistic explanation of it.
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
firedragon said:
Generally, what was said here by me are general understanding. I have not so far come across any other understanding of them in Islamic scholarship. And its simple language.

But I would like to hear any other understanding and a linguistic explanation of it.
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I am no linguist i practice sufi way, and my understanding of what the quran says and yes i use English translations
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
TagliatelliMonster said:
Yes, you said that already.
I responded by saying that I consider that a problem.

So why don't you consider that a problem?
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Because even the teaching say something about a topic, each one of us will understand this topic differently.

Of course if a person take every single word in a religious teaching and try to understand every letter in this word, it will create confusion.

To practice a teaching is to read it, and practice how it say. But it is a long prosess to truly understand the teaching. A lot of hidden wisdom
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Conscious thoughts said:
Because even the teaching say something about a topic, each one of us will understand this topic differently.

Of course if a person take every single word in a religious teaching and try to understand every letter in this word, it will create confusion.

To practice a teaching is to read it, and practice how it say. But it is a long prosess to truly understand the teaching. A lot of hidden wisdom
Click to expand...

Why must it be so hidden? Why must it be all so ambiguous? Isn't this super-intellectual capable of dictating a book that can be understood in only one way - being the correct way.
After all, this book supposedly is the most important message to mankind in existence, right? You'ld think that the author would be extra careful to make sure that whoever reads it, reads it correctly. I sure wouldn't take any chances of being misunderstood when the topic is this important...

Let's put it this way................
Suppose there is this physics textbook. It's written so ambiguously that when 10 students read it, all of them walk away with a different version of E = mc².

One will say it's E = mc².
Another will say it's E² = mc.
Yet another will say it's E = m²c
yet another will say it's E = mc
Yet another will say it's Em = c²

etc etc etc.
Wouldn't you consider that a problem?
And would you think the problem is with the students, or with the textbook?


Who's to blame here? The 10 students, or the textbook and by extension, its author?
I can guarantee you that if such would occur, said textbook would be replaced by a decent one.
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
TagliatelliMonster said:
Why must it be so hidden? Why must it be all so ambiguous? Isn't this super-intellectual capable of dictating a book that can be understood in only one way - being the correct way.
After all, this book supposedly is the most important message to mankind in existence, right? You'ld think that the author would be extra careful to make sure that whoever reads it, reads it correctly. I sure wouldn't take any chances of being misunderstood when the topic is this important...

Let's put it this way................
Suppose there is this physics textbook. It's written with so ambiguously that when 10 students read it, all of them walk away with a different version of E = mc².

One will say it's E = mc².
Another will say it's E² = mc.
Yet another will say it's E = m²c
yet another will say it's E = mc
Yet another will say it's Em = c²

etc etc etc.
Wouldn't you consider that a problem?
And would you think the problem is with the students, or with the textbook?


Who's to blame here? The 10 students, or the textbook and by extension, its author?
I can guarantee you that if such would occur, said textbook would be replaced by a decent one.
Click to expand...
I do not understand what your example say.
 
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