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Is The Left Of Politics Fractured?

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
They brought us the wonders of the atomic bomb and nuclear waste...
Science showed how these things could be done...government bought in and paid to make it happen.

Don't forget, science invented DDT, and science later showed that it was having a harmful effect on bird life, which nobody anticipated. And we no longer use DDT anywhere. That was a decision by the powers vested in government. Don't want the bomb? Talk to your government. Don't want nuclear energy? Talk to your government.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
Better things cannot be built on a foundation of aggravation, and I consider those who use 'unrest' to actually be far to my right. A good, strong idea does not need screaming. Actions of destruction will not inspire faith in a cause for all that long.
What massive societal change didn't occur around unrest and aggravation. Name one.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Being a non-American, living outside America, it seems to me that the loudest voices on the left (who I do not think represent the majority of the left) are irrational and have a cult mentality, labelling anybody against them as Fascist or right wing extremist without presenting evidence or quote mining and not looking at the broader context of quotes and situations. They have a black and white mentality and lack any understanding of nuance except when it comes to issues that suit their agenda, such as gender identity.

I would be considered a leftist (possibly leaning towards individual anarchism?) but I would reject the left in America and support the right simply because I see the right as open to dialogue whereas the left is not, and shutting down dialogue, such as shouting down people in universities rather than reasoning with them is a slap in the face of critical thinking. So I consider the indoctrinated left dangerous and way too influential when it comes to the popular opinion.
Funny, my experience as a non American has been the exact opposite. Though “wokescolds” are indeed a bane.
 

SeekerOnThePath

On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
I would be considered a leftist (possibly leaning towards individual anarchism?) but I would reject the left in America and support the right simply because I see the right as open to dialogue whereas the left is not, and shutting down dialogue, such as shouting down people in universities rather than reasoning with them is a slap in the face of critical thinking. So I consider the indoctrinated left dangerous and way too influential when it comes to the popular opinion.

Interesting, I'm a Non-American too (all the America-centered politics on the internet is like a strange alternate reality that is very separate from daily life and the politics where I am).

I'm very much a left-leaning person myself. I've flirted with and had my moments as a right-winger but I find it less and less justifiable the more spiritual I get and the more I engage both political and philosophical thought (though philosophy is something I have already read as much as religious texts).
I'm definitely not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination, I do have anarchist tendencies though, occasionally Socialist and Marxist flirtation (particular around certain dialectics and critiques given by certain important thinkers from those camps, moreso than mainline application which misses the mark entirely).
Ultimately though I am very much about both individual liberty (which I think all religions teach, although Christianity can be pretty oppressive particularly those that take Paul and the Apocalypse of st John too seriously) and for ecological focus.
I see both as fundamental concerns that stand both above technological advancement and any post-Global concerns that the 'leading' countries of the world focus on in their agendas.
Without individual liberty and care about nature, we're basically tightening our own noose and saying goodbye to humanity. Most civilizations pre-modern understood the reality of this, yet modern left wingers and right wingers both have a strong tendency to be apathetic towards these fundamentals.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Well Trump has the proud boys and the boogaloo bois on his side, if you were to ask the FBI who is the bigger threat, they've already made it quite clear right wing extremists are the bigger threat for terrorism today.
If Trump wins, we will see who starts the violence.

In fairness, if Biden wins we will see who starts the violence.

;0]
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Funny, my experience as a non American has been the exact opposite. Though “wokescolds” are indeed a bane.
I'm just dying to know why Trump is such a big deal with foreigners. I dont get it. He's not in charge over there. Or is he?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
If Trump wins, we will see who starts the violence.

In fairness, if Biden wins we will see who starts the violence.

;0]

Problem is there are way way more highly armed right wing extremists than heavily armed left wing extremists, SO if Biden wins we are probably going to have to heavily rely on our armed forces and police officers to maintain order, and it may be really bad.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm just dying to know why Trump is such a big deal with foreigners. I dont get it. He's not in charge over there. Or is he?
Are you aware that the US is a superpower? A power structure that affects literally the rest of the world? I assumed with all the ultra patriotism and dragging my country into wars (hello Afghanistan just during the last decade alone) you would be aware of how the US politics affects other nations. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. Trump affects us all, genius. And yeah I think he’s a douche. Biden is an out of touch boomer but still. Both seem fashy to my gaze, but whatever.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Are you aware that the US is a superpower? A power structure that affects literally the rest of the world? I assumed with all the ultra patriotism and dragging my country into wars (hello Afghanistan just during the last decade alone) you would be aware of how the US politics affects other nations. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. Trump affects us all, genius. And yeah I think he’s a douche. Biden is an out of touch boomer but still. Both seem fashy to my gaze, but whatever.
I'll tell you sumptin sunshine, your country didn't have to participate in Afghanistan/Iraq in the first place. Thats solely on the head of your leaders.

Oh besides, Trump wasn't involved in any wars, so Oz should be grateful for all the the peace in the last four years. ;0]

Watch Biden if he wins. I'll just leave it at that.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Watch Biden if he wins. I'll just leave it at that.

A lot of people have told me to watch things in my life.

My family told me to watch what would happen if I moved away from conservative Christianity. I did, and I no longer have a fear of eternal torment.

I was told to watch what would happen if I transitioned, that I would end up in a body I didn't like. That hasn't happened yet either.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Interesting, I'm a Non-American too (all the America-centered politics on the internet is like a strange alternate reality that is very separate from daily life and the politics where I am).

I'm very much a left-leaning person myself. I've flirted with and had my moments as a right-winger but I find it less and less justifiable the more spiritual I get and the more I engage both political and philosophical thought (though philosophy is something I have already read as much as religious texts).
I'm definitely not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination, I do have anarchist tendencies though, occasionally Socialist and Marxist flirtation (particular around certain dialectics and critiques given by certain important thinkers from those camps, moreso than mainline application which misses the mark entirely).
Ultimately though I am very much about both individual liberty (which I think all religions teach, although Christianity can be pretty oppressive particularly those that take Paul and the Apocalypse of st John too seriously) and for ecological focus.
I see both as fundamental concerns that stand both above technological advancement and any post-Global concerns that the 'leading' countries of the world focus on in their agendas.
Without individual liberty and care about nature, we're basically tightening our own noose and saying goodbye to humanity. Most civilizations pre-modern understood the reality of this, yet modern left wingers and right wingers both have a strong tendency to be apathetic towards these fundamentals.

I have come to similar conclusions. I like listening to the intellectuals on the socialist and Marxist side because much of what they say is either thought provoking or points that I internally agree with, such as Cornell West, Noam Chomsky etc. I haven't gone too deep into it though. Many laymen supporters seem to like the surface level ideas but can't comprehend them on an intellectual level and resort to tactics that I think are opposed to critical thinking.

I agree with you on individual liberty and the ecological focus.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
I'll tell you sumptin sunshine, your country didn't have to participate in Afghanistan/Iraq in the first place. Thats solely on the head of your leaders.
Actually yes, they did if they are NATO members or allies of the US. The invasion of Afghanistan was ruled a defensive action by NATO leadership in accordance with US interests.

Oh, and I don't think anybody asked Iraq or Afghanistan to participate in their invasions, either.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
That is interesting. How do you see the situation from the opposite side?
Well I saw all this “facts over feelings” rhetoric from speakers like Shapiro, Dave Rubin, this Crowder guy, Jordan Peterson (yeah, I know he’s Canadian. He’s just “part of that crowd” for better or worse) and the like. I didn’t really have much context for any of it, being non American and all. This was a few years ago. They presented themselves as conservative intellectuals. Giving advice to young men and fighting this culture war thing. On college campuses for some reason.
Battling it out in what appears to be debates. But again no context so for all I know it could be just random uni lectures idk.
Fast forward a couple years and it was like some kind of awakening. The rhetoric didn’t stand up to scrutiny. The propagators doing the exact same thing they accused the “left/SJWs” doing. Using feelings (which is fine, don’t get me wrong but these guys were the ones ridiculing them.) Shapiro got his *** handed to him by a staunchly conservative news Reporter simply asking him standard questions. Peterson has apparently recovered from his rehab visit. I genuinely hope he’s okay, I don’t wish ill upon people.
They’re now all “memes” as the kids say. It was....interesting to see this unfold online and see bits of it on our news.
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I'll tell you sumptin sunshine, your country didn't have to participate in Afghanistan/Iraq in the first place. Thats solely on the head of your leaders.

Oh besides, Trump wasn't involved in any wars, so Oz should be grateful for all the the peace in the last four years. ;0]

Watch Biden if he wins. I'll just leave it at that.
There’s this thing called being allies. If the US goes to war with someone, we’re pretty much obligated by default. Like someone already mentioned, the invasion was deemed an act of defence due to 9/11 (I assume.) We literally had no choice in the matter. That’s the reality of being international allies.
International politics affects us all.
I’m not suggesting either of your presidential candidates are going to war any time soon. It was just an example of how the US affects other countries.
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
What massive societal change didn't occur around unrest and aggravation. Name one.

Change is generational, it takes time. What happens when you throw frozen food in a skillet, without defrosting the food? Why, it burns on the outside and remains raw within. Unrest and aggravation are also at odds with democracy and liberty , as the tools you have to better the world. You can go vote for what you want, and it just might happen, that is democracy. Liberty - I am at liberty to chase the spirituality I want, and no one is likely to come crucify me. I can convince others using reason, and there is likely no one to silence me. I see that if we wait, all the conservative ideas will eventually fade. I see that if you aggravate them, it prolongs things unnecessarily, and accentuates history with more senseless turmoil
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Well I saw all this “facts over feelings” rhetoric from speakers like Shapiro, Dave Rubin, this Crowder guy, Jordan Peterson (yeah, I know he’s Canadian. He’s just “part of that crowd” for better or worse) and the like. I didn’t really have much context for any of it, being non American and all. This was a few years ago. They presented themselves as conservative intellectuals.

Hm.. well the only one of those I can listen to sometimes is jordan peterson, and though I disagree with him on a few important things, he's well studied. To me, shapiro and crowder are totally indigestible, and I find rubin pretty uninteresting or not my cup of tea, no offense.. I also can't see how rubin can really be all that much a conservative, because he's not straight.. As for peterson, his biblical interpretations are fairly idiosyncratic, so I can't even be sure if he's a believer really. By the way, I was posting some biblical ideas that were pretty similar to his before he got popular, when I look at threads and postings I made before he became known. I guess he just was able to get famous with that kind of thing
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Actually yes, they did if they are NATO members or allies of the US. The invasion of Afghanistan was ruled a defensive action by NATO leadership in accordance with US interests.

Oh, and I don't think anybody asked Iraq or Afghanistan to participate in their invasions, either.
That doesn't actually mean it had to happen.
 
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