Is the Lama Selection Process Legit?

[Fire_Monkey]

So...I was watching a Netflix documentary on the Dalai Lama the other night, which was excellent, btw. And consisted of 10 questions being asked of His Holiness by the interviewer/film-maker, Rick Ray. I am a huge fan of His Holiness and think he is a total delight. By far he is my favorite of all the religious leaders in the world. And the documentary also was sort of a biography of the Lama and traced his childhood and, more to the point of this post, the selection process with which he was chosen to be the 14th reincarnation of the Buddha.

Maybe some of you are familiar with the process. A team of hand-picked holy men set out to scour the country to find the next Lama in line. They are allegedly lead by a sort of divine intuition or guidance, and they are looking for small children, usually in small remote villages. The child is then put through a series of tests to determine if he indeed is the real Buddha incarnate. Such as: he is shown a series of toys or other objects and asked to choose which one was HIS in his previous incarnation. He is also asked to show things and places that pertained to the former lama, and which the child would of course have no way of knowing about were he NOT the Incarnate.

So...my question to you all: what do you think of the validity of this selection process? What I mean is, if it is truly done in an objective manner, and the child is REALLY tested as he should be, with no hinting or prompting, and he DOES choose correctly in all tests, well, I personally feel this is a very compelling argument for the whole idea of Reincarnation.

Or do you fell the test is somehow rigged? Or partial and subjective?

I welcome all thoughts on this issue. Thanks!

 

[Lyndon]

The dalai lama is not the Buddha, he is the reincarnation of a saint or what is sometimes called by Tibetans a "living Buddha" but nothing to do with the historic Gautama Buddha, who reached enlightenment and hence will not reincarnate.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The whole scheme just smacks of verisimilitude.

 

[Lyndon]

The whole scheme just smacks of verisimilitude.

I tried google translate but it gave me nothing????

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I tried google translate but it gave me nothing????

Make sure you have it set on "english to english."

 

[Fire_Monkey]

The dalai lama is not the Buddha, he is the reincarnation of a saint or what is sometimes called by Tibetans a "living Buddha" but nothing to do with the historic Gautama Buddha, who reached enlightenment and hence will not reincarnate.

Wrong. He is the 14th incarnation of the Buddha. Hence the term Living Buddha.

Besides, I asked for opinions on the veracity of the selection process. So either comment on that it please get off my thread. Start your own thread if you want to discuss Buddhist theological doctrine.

Bye bye now.

Reincarnation | The Office of His Holiness The Dalai Lama

 

[Fire_Monkey]

The whole scheme just smacks of verisimilitude.

Ooooh.....You use big words! You must be an intellectual.

What's verisimilitude?

 

[George-ananda]

I think the process is legitimate. Childhood reincarnation memories are now quite well documented with even non-lamas (average people).

 

[Fire_Monkey]

I think the process is legitimate. Childhood reincarnation memories are now quite well documented with even non-lamas (average people).

Thank you! Finally somebody grasped the concept of my thread and offered an opinion on the veracity of the choosing process.

 

[George-ananda]

Thank you! Finally somebody grasped the concept of my thread and offered an opinion on the veracity of the choosing process.

Need any Rocket Science problems solved while I'm at it?

 

[Lyndon]

Wrong. He is the 14th incarnation of the Buddha. Hence the term Living Buddha.

Besides, I asked for opinions on the veracity of the selection process. So either comment on that it please get off my thread. Start your own thread if you want to discuss Buddhist theological doctrine.

Bye bye now.

Reincarnation | The Office of His Holiness The Dalai Lama

Total BS, he is the 14th incarnation of a Tibetan Gelugpa sect Lama that lived roughly somewhere around the 14 Century in TIBET, NOT INDIA, he died and been reincarnated 13 times since then, where are you getting this garbage from, the Buddha died, never to be reborn 2500 years ago. The Dalai lama is supposed to be an earthly incarnation of the deity Avalokitesvara, not Gautama Buddha. Read from the Dalai Lamas own website;

The Dalai Lamas | The Office of His Holiness The Dalai Lama

 

[LuisDantas]

Wrong. He is the 14th incarnation of the Buddha. Hence the term Living Buddha.

Sorry. @Lyndon is mostly correct this time.

Per Mahayana / Vajrayana doctrine, everyone is a living Buddha to some degree. Lamas are presumably somewhat more skilled at it.

As I have been told, the Dalai Lama is expected to be a manifestation of Cherenzi, the Boddhisatva of Compassion (who goes by other names elsewhere, notably
Avalokiteśvara, Guanyin and Kwannon - interestingly, most of those are feminine). Not of Gautama Buddha.

In any case, I personally find the idea of reincarnation inherently self-contradictory, as well as at odds with basic Buddhist doctrine. It is essentially impossible to convince me of its verisimilitude no matter what.

It is just about conceivable that memories and other mental aggregates might sometimes transfer from a dead person to someone else, but I don't think it is either a very likely, very religiously significant or very frequent happening even if we take for granted that it does indeed happen.

If it did happen, it might perhaps be an useful starting point for skilled religious teachers to consolidate their studies. But still, "the proof is in the pudding". The true merits and legitimacy of any Dharma teacher, within or without the Lamaistic traditions, will unavoidably reside on his/her discernment, Dharma and transmission.

In that respect, the selection process is actually irrelevant.

 

[Fire_Monkey]

Sorry. @Lyndon is mostly correct this time.

Per Mahayana / Vajrayana doctrine, everyone is a living Buddha to some degree. Lamas are presumably somewhat more skilled at it.

As I have been told, the Dalai Lama is expected to be a manifestation of Cherenzi, the Boddhisatva of Compassion (who goes by other names elsewhere, notably
Avalokiteśvara, Guanyin and Kwannon - interestingly, most of those are feminine). Not of Gautama Buddha.

In any case, I personally find the idea of reincarnation inherently self-contradictory, as well as at odds with basic Buddhist doctrine. It is essentially impossible to convince me of its verisimilitude no matter what.

It is just about conceivable that memories and other mental aggregates might sometimes transfer from a dead person to someone else, but I don't think it is either a very likely, very religiously significant or very frequent happening even if we take for granted that it does indeed happen.

If it did happen, it might perhaps be an useful starting point for skilled religious teachers to consolidate their studies. But still, "the proof is in the pudding". The true merits and legitimacy of any Dharma teacher, within or without the Lamaistic traditions, will unavoidably reside on his/her discernment, Dharma and transmission.

In that respect, the selection process is actually irrelevant.

Did I correctly understand that you just claimed the idea of reincarnation is contrary to Buddhist doctrine? Wow. You know very little about Buddhism, bro.

Selection process irrelevant?

Wow again. It's only the validity of the process of choosing one of the greatest spiritual teachers on the planet. It only factors a great deal as to the validity of the entire notion of reincarnation.

Your answer is useless. Please leave my thread.



But first read this and learn something...

Tibetan Buddhism: what is reincarnation?


PS..I rated your post as funny! LOL

 

[Fire_Monkey]

Total BS, he is the 14th incarnation of a Tibetan Gelugpa sect Lama that lived roughly somewhere around the 14 Century in TIBET, NOT INDIA, he died and been reincarnated 13 times since then, where are you getting this garbage from, the Buddha died, never to be reborn 2500 years ago. The Dalai lama is supposed to be an earthly incarnation of the deity Avalokitesvara, not Gautama Buddha. Read from the Dalai Lamas own website;

The Dalai Lamas | The Office of His Holiness The Dalai Lama

You're funny!

 

[LuisDantas]

Did I correctly understand that you just claimed the idea of reincarnation is contrary to Buddhist doctrine?

Quite so. It goes directly against Anatta and Interdependent Origination, among other core concepts of Buddhadharma. I strongly suspect that the rather exotic understanding of rebirth that is so popular in Tibetan Vajrayana is an import from

Wow. You know very little about Buddhism, bro.

I beg to differ. Or rather, not to care about your judgment on this matter. In all honesty, I don't think I have asked for your opinion on my degree of knowledge of Buddhism.

Selection process irrelevant?

Exactly. The Lama-to-be is, after all, selected by, as you quite properly call them, hand-picked holy men and taught from a young age by very qualified teachers.

Such early and intensive education is expected to make a significant difference, don't you think?

I was once told that the Panchem Lama mentored the Dalai Lama. To the best of my understanding they may well take turns educating each other for years or decades. I don't think they do that without hoping that there will be a meaningful result.

Wow again. It's only the validity of the process of choosing one of the greatest spiritual teachers on the planet.

So?

It only factors a great deal as to the validity of the entire notion of reincarnation.

Yes, there is that. A common misunderstanding that we all will hopefully rise above maintaining, sooner rather than later.

Your answer is useless. Please leave my thread.

Sure. As soon as you remind me when you earned that authority, anyway.

Odds are that I will leave anyway, since I loathe wasting my time watching the manifestation of foolish arrogance. But the question does present itself nonetheless.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Ooooh.....You use big words! You must be an intellectual.

What's verisimilitude?

A quality your posts lack.

 

[Darz]

To me it seems like the process would be extremely subjective, especially when it comes to interpreting dreams or interpreting signs in order to figure out where to even start looking. When it comes to testing the children, I imagine it would be difficult for them to be entirely objective. If I was in their place I know I would hope that this this next child I test is really the tulku, so if the child chooses the correct toy, I might be a bit more open to accepting some vague similarities between the deceased and the child.

If rebirth does truly occur, Tenzin Ösel Hita and Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche may indicate that the wrong children were chosen.

 

[miodrag]

a manifestation of Cherenzi, the Boddhisatva of Compassion

I think it should be Chenrezi.
And so far everybody was about right, except the OP. Reincarnation is a paradox in Buddhism. Personal identity is regarded as an illusion in Buddhism, so what reincarnates is ... eh.. karma, they use to say. So it is truly irrelevant who or what reincarnates, from the logical viewpoint. Which makes Tibetan insisting on recognizing a previous personal incarnation at odds with the strict Buddhist teaching.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sorry, my bad about the spelling.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Did I correctly understand that you just claimed the idea of reincarnation is contrary to Buddhist doctrine? Wow. You know very little about Buddhism, bro. ...

PS..I rated your post as funny! LOL

Quite so. It goes directly against Anatta and Interdependent Origination, among other core concepts of Buddhadharma.

Interesting. I'm embarrassed to admit that I did not know this. Thanks.

By the way, @Fire_Monkey , given, for example, ...

A gross misunderstanding of about Buddhism exists today, especially in the notion of reincarnation. The common misunderstanding is that a person has led countless previous lives, usually as an animal, but somehow in this life he is born as a human being and in the next life he will be reborn as an animal, depending on the kind of life he has lived.

This misunderstanding arises because people usually do not know-how to read the sutras or sacred writings. It is said that the Buddha left 84,000 teachings; the symbolic figure represents the diverse backgrounds characteristics, tastes, etc. of the people. The Buddha taught according to the mental and spiritual capacity of each individual. For the simple village folks living during the time of the Buddha, the doctrine of reincarnation was a powerful moral lesson. Fear of birth into the animal world must have frightened many people from acting like animals in this life. If we take this teaching literally today we are confused because we cannot understand it rationally.

Herein lies our problem. A parable, when taken literally, does not make sense to the modern mind. Therefore we must learn to differentiate the parables and myths from actuality. However, if we learn to go beyond or transcend the parables and myths, we will be able to understand the truth.

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Reincarnation is not a simple physical birth of a person; for instance, John being reborn as a cat in the next life. In this case John possesses an immortal soul which transforms to the form of a cat after his death. This cycle is repeated over and over again. Or if he is lucky, he will be reborn as a human being. This notion of the transmigration of the soul definitely does not exist in Buddhism. [ source ]

How shall we rate your post? LOL