Is the Jesus in the Quran the same in the Bible?

[pro4life]

Muhammad learnt about Jesus, and about many other characters in the Bible, during his travels up and down the trade routes of Arabia and the near East. The knowledge he gained was remixed into a fanciful and false prophecy which has been handed down in a book known as the Qur'an.
There are two sound reasons for dismissing this book as false prophecy. Firstly, it claims to offer a return to law after the Gospel has brought a fulfilment of law. This is a backward step to old religion. Secondly, the Qur'an denies the crucifixion of Jesus and the prophetic message of salvation from sin and death.

So, we are LED to believe the Jesus (Isa) of the Qur'an is the same Jesus as is found in the Bible. But the Isa of the Qur'an is a make-believe Jesus, based on stories gleaned by Muhammad on his travels. The real Christ is known through the Bible, and through the Holy Spirit.

The man was illiterate.

 

[pro4life]

And we're supposed to believe this because you say so??? I don't think so.......

Wikipedia clearly states that some academics think the Gospel of Barnabas is derived from older or original sources, while the majority of CHRISTIAN academics think it is a much later work, of course outhouse believes there is no such thing as an Islamic scholar, so their opinion doesn't count.

Gospel of Barnabas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're silly, go read your link.

 

[pro4life]

Because that later book has no real historical value. It is only using the first set of books as its only source.


When looking at things historically speaking, closer to the source or event gives a greater chance for accuracy.


Could you describe events from 600 years ago with any detail unless you read a book? or were told by people who read said books?

Are you saying the Bible and the Quran to be the same?

 

[raph]

You perverted what I said to fit your theological needs. You completely ignored the contradictions that are in context different

i dont know which contradictions you speak of. The Quran is poetry and not easy to understand. For example it talks about trumpet sounds on the day of judgement. I dont believe there will be giant trumpets in the sky, this would be strange. Most verses' meaning is not to understand litterally.

We dont have accurate historical documents about the historical context of the verses. And I dont think that the poetical context is as easy to see as you think. If you believe that you understand the context, okay, but I think that some verses can not be understood by everyone, and the Quran itself says that.

Of course I am biased by my believe, as you are. Everyone is biased, there is no need to pointing it out.

 

[outhouse]

i dont know which contradictions you speak of.

If you don't understand the theological and basic outlines of the stories, why are you debating them?

 

[raph]

If you don't understand the theological and basic outlines of the stories, why are you debating them?

I understand that the Quran is a poem which leads to an unexplainable truth. For example the Bible talks about Jesus being born in a house and the Quran says he was born under a palm tree. There is a contradiction if you take it literally. But then we would also have giant trumpets in the sky, talking ants, and doors in heaven where the rain comes from.

Poems are not meant literally. Perhaps the story of Jesus birth is full of symbolism that lets us feel something. Thats how poems work.

 

[outhouse]

Poems are not meant literally.

And both books are not all written in the prose of poems, very little of the NT is.

So you have created a fallacy to avoid the huge contradictions in theology and mythology.

 

[outhouse]

I understand that the Quran is a poem which leads to an unexplainable truth

If the truth cannot be explained, is it the truth?

 

[outhouse]

What we have here is two very different characters. One has the possibility of having a historical core, the other has no chance at all.

 

[Shad]

Mohammad never claimed he wrote the stories about Jesus, in fact Islamic scholars seem to be in agreement that they came from earlier sources, its no more plagiarism that the Bible is. Either both the Bible and the Koran plagiarized or neither did. I sincerely doubt either the writers of the Bible or the Koran had ever heard of the concept of plagiarism as per your Roman poet.

People already know different Gospels borrowed from each other and a Q source, although the Q source is debatable. It is not an issue unless one is a literialist. However it is a huge issue for the Quran since borrow mythology, not just from Judaism and Christianity, place a very human hand as the author not God.

 

[Shad]

The man was illiterate.

The man had ears, the man lived and traveled in areas populated by Christians and Jews. To not underestimate oral communication.

 

[Shad]

I understand that the Quran is a poem which leads to an unexplainable truth. For example the Bible talks about Jesus being born in a house and the Quran says he was born under a palm tree. There is a contradiction if you take it literally. But then we would also have giant trumpets in the sky, talking ants, and doors in heaven where the rain comes from.

Poems are not meant literally. Perhaps the story of Jesus birth is full of symbolism that lets us feel something. Thats how poems work.

The Palm Tree and Jesus was already addressed on page 2. There is a Christian tradition of this story but it is not part of mainstream Christians of today. Keep in mind the Christians Muslim would have had contact with were more likely to be heretics in their own times.

 

[raph]

Wasn't the gospel of Barnabas written in the middle ages? And sorry for making a mistake, the Quran never says that Jesus was born under a palm tree. It says that the pain of birth made Mary go to a palm tree and sit there.
Gospel of Luke doesnt deny that Jesus was born under a palm tree, does it?

Bible:
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Quran:
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten."
But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream.
And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates.
So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to [any] man.' "
Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.

So, in my opinion both the Bible and Quran don't make explicit statements, about where Jesus was born. The Quran says that Mary set down under a palm tree in labor. The Bible says, that after Jesus was born, she took him to a manger.
So one logical explanation would be, that she has born him under a date palm, and then brought him into a manger. Is this not possible?

Note, that the question is if Bible and Quran tell the same story about Jesus. To answer this question, one must compare the two texts. It is completely irrelevant, if Muhammad copied the Bible, or God exists, or the Bible is faked. The question is only, wether these two texts match up.

 

[Ashraf]

But I was taught Muslims do not believe Jesus was crucified, as recorded in the Gospel of Barnabas.

That is right. Jesus was never crucified according to the Holy Qur'an

 

[Lyndon]

The early Christians were split roughly in half between those who believed Jesus was God, and those that believed he was just a great man. The true heretics, the Roman Catholic Church, decided to fight and exterminate the believers that believed Jesus was not God, so what we have today is not the true Christianity, but rather the twisted Christianity of the Oppressor Church founded by the pagan emperor Constantine. Which is now the Catholic church, the Eastern Orthodox church and split into all the Protestant Churches. Practically no Christians today follow the early Christianity that was exterminated by the Roman Catholic church, although Islam preserves some of these teachings in the Koran.

 

[outhouse]

So, in my opinion both the Bible and Quran don't make explicit statements, about where Jesus was born. The Quran says that Mary set down under a palm tree in labor. The Bible says, that after Jesus was born, she took him to a manger.
So one logical explanation would be, that she has born him under a date palm, and then brought him into a manger. Is this not possible?

Possible and historical accounts are not the same.

And why would details 600 years later have any credibility what so ever?

The NT written shortly after death has no credible historicity for the events surrounding his birth according to a complete consensus of credible scholars.

 

[outhouse]

So, in my opinion both the Bible and Quran don't make explicit statements, about where Jesus was born.

Because neither book were not focused on being historical accounts. The NT was written by people far removed from the mans birth.

The Koran was removed so far as to have no historical value for the man, according to all credible scholars.

 

[Lyndon]

The accounts about Jesus used in the Koran are just as old as the ones used in the NT, they just don't have the blessing of the Roman Catholic Church, are you standing up for the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to pick which books are inspired, Outhouse????

 

[raph]

Possible and historical accounts are not the same.

And why would details 600 years later have any credibility what so ever?

The NT written shortly after death has no credible historicity for the events surrounding his birth according to a complete consensus of credible scholars.

I understand your point of view. Being an atheist, you have a material understanding of the scriptures. Is the nature of your question rhetorical, are you criticizing the believe in God with it? Or do you really not know the aswer, a muslim will give? To answer your question, the only credibility of the Quran is God. Verily, if you don't believe in God, or that Muhammad was a messenger, there is not a single drop of credibility in the Holy Quran.

That is right. Jesus was never crucified according to the Holy Qur'an

The interesting thing is, that even a crucifiction is relative. I want to give this thread some thoughts, that may make people understand the mismatch of the Bible and Quran version of the crucifiction. Let's look at the verse in the Quran:

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
4:157-158

This verse is quite mysterious. They slew him not, but it appeared so unto them, what does that mean? In which way was he taken up to God? Probably, the Quran doesn't talk about Jesus body. A body can't be with God. I think, a good way to look at it, is to take the Bible. There are some interesting verses in the Bible, that explain very well the meaning of this Quran verse.

"Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die"
John 11:25
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
John 8:58
"Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
John 2:19

Jesus has a physical body, which can be killed. But this is not his true nature. His true nature is the eternal Logos, the Word of God.
Jesus himself implied in these 3 verses, that they didn't kill him.
How can you kill someone, who is the resurrection and the life?
If his believers live, even though they die, is it not logical, that he himself lives, even though he dies?
If he existed, before abraham, it is logical that he existed after his death. You can't kill the I AM!
This is even clearer, because Jesus raised his body up when he was dead. A dead being can't do anything. The last verse clearly stated, that Jesus was living, even though his body died.

Jesus appeared to die, but he was living the whole time, before Abraham, and after his own death. That is the meaning of the Holy Quran verse. That is why I listed some contradictions, that only appeared to be contradictions.

Exactly like "I am moving at 0 mp/h & I am moving at 1000 mp/h" are both true at the same time, depending on how you look at it.
"Jesus died & Jesus did not die" is also both true at the same time, depending on how you look at it.

A professor of Islam says the same in Wikipedia, so there are at least 2 people, who look at it like that

In regard to the interpretation of the Muslims who accept the crucifixion, Mahmoud Ayoub states:
The Qur'an is not here speaking about a man, righteous and wronged though he may be, but about the Word of God who was sent to earth and returned to God. Thus the denial of killing of Jesus is a denial of the power of men to vanquish and destroy the divine Word, which is for ever victorious.

 

[DawudTalut]

....And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
4:157-158

This verse is quite mysterious. They slew him not, but it appeared so unto them, what does that mean? In which way was he taken up to God? Probably, the Quran doesn't talk about Jesus body. A body can't be with God. I think, a good way to look at it, is to take the Bible. There are some interesting verses in the Bible, that explain very well the meaning of this Quran verse.

"Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die"
John 11:25
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
John 8:58
"Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
John 2:19

Jesus has a physical body, which can be killed. But this is not his true nature. His true nature is the eternal Logos, the Word of God.
Jesus himself implied in these 3 verses, that they didn't kill him.
How can you kill someone, who is the resurrection and the life?
If his believers live, even though they die, is it not logical, that he himself lives, even though he dies?
If he existed, before abraham, it is logical that he existed after his death. You can't kill the I AM!
This is even clearer, because Jesus raised his body up when he was dead. A dead being can't do anything. The last verse clearly stated, that Jesus was living, even though his body died.

Jesus appeared to die, but he was living the whole time, before Abraham, and after his own death. That is the meaning of the Holy Quran verse. That is why I listed some contradictions, that only appeared to be contradictions.

Exactly like "I am moving at 0 mp/h & I am moving at 1000 mp/h" are both true at the same time, depending on how you look at it.
"Jesus died & Jesus did not die" is also both true at the same time, depending on how you look at it.

A professor of Islam says the same in Wikipedia, so there are at least 2 people, who look at it like that

In regard to the interpretation of the Muslims who accept the crucifixion, Mahmoud Ayoub states:
The Qur'an is not here speaking about a man, righteous and wronged though he may be, but about the Word of God who was sent to earth and returned to God. Thus the denial of killing of Jesus is a denial of the power of men to vanquish and destroy the divine Word, which is for ever victorious.

Peace be on you.
The Ahmadiyya-Muslim understanding is otherwise, and it is here:

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@ The Holy Quran next page
[wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/?page=225&region=EN&CR=E1,E2&CR=E1,E2]





Further details of the verse @ The Holy Quran
[wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/?page=581&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2]