Is The Hell Fire Justice

[Kcnorwood]

How do you define love?
does God have to put killers,child molesters,etc
into paradise to demonstrate His love?
what kind of love is that were's the justice?

Love is not making a place called hell & sending your children there, just because he wants too.

 

[mcteethinator]

I remember when I was atheist and I was arguing with an evangelical. I said "Hell is wrong since it is an infinite punishment for finite bad deeds" and she said "yeah well you don't get angry at parents for punishing their kids". It was the stupidest answer to any religious debate I had ever had.

But heaven/hell makes sense to me now. How can you be with God when you have denied him? It isn't so much as justice as the my opinion that
Life is God's creation, therefore it isn't that bad. it has some essence of God in it, since he created it. And this is a truly beautiful thing, God's creation.
Heaven is man's limited way of saying of describing a state of being close to God.
Hell is man's limited way of saying of describing a state of being far away from God.
It's like, an empty void, where no essence of God exists at all. And it's horrible.
How can God bring you closer to him when you reject him?

Now that makes a little more sense to me then "you go to hell since not believing in God is akin to murder".

 

[~Amin~]

Love is not making a place called hell & sending your children there, just because he wants too.

That didnt answer the question pretty tough isnt it?
O LIGHT OF LIGHT:
O ILLUMINATER OF LIGHT:
O FASHIONER OF LIGHT:
O CREATER OF LIGHT:
O DETERMINER OF LIGHT:
O PLANNER OF LIGHT:
O LIGHT WHO EXISTED BEFORE ALL LIGHT:
O LIGHT WHO WILL EXIST AFTER ALL LIGHT:
O LIGHT SURPASSING ALL LIGHT:
O LIGHT WHOM NO LIGHT RESEMBLES-
GLORY BE UNTO THEE,THOU ART WITHOUT
PARTNER OR FAULT! THERES NO gOD BUT THEE!
MERCY,MEERCY,SAVE US FROM THE HELL FIRE!
PEACE.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Well does that mean Your God should be destoyed too?
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Sounds like to me he's evil too.

Kcnorwood, I will try to explain this to you. If you are indeed Pagan, you might be familiar with Magick or Witchcraft. Unless you are one of those Pagans that only do positive spells, you might at least understand the notion that to be a Witch that can heal, you need to be able to hex as well.

This is not a dig at Wiccans, lets get past this. All I am saying is some folks believe that the most powerful magick is grey magick or middle path magick. There has to be a perfect balance between good and bad, or positive and negative energy.

The Bible says to not participate in the Occult. If the occult did not exist, there would be no need to mention this. Why would God not want us to dabble in the super natural? Because it is real and powerful. To be all powerful, you need to reduce competition right?

I hope you are following me here. This is not a sermon or a put down Wiccan party.

All I am saying is, an all powerful God would need to have the furthest extremes on each side of him and be smack dad in the middle with laser accuracy to achieve the status of All Powerful God.

So yes, God is the worst and the best and everything in between. He is Alpha and Omega and all things in between.

 

[YmirGF]

I remember when I was atheist and I was arguing with an evangelical. I said "Hell is wrong since it is an infinite punishment for finite bad deeds" and she said "yeah well you don't get angry at parents for punishing their kids". It was the stupidest answer to any religious debate I had ever had.

Indeed, that is pretty lame, lol.

But heaven/hell makes sense to me now.

Well yes, to a degree this primitive concept makes sense, but my bone of contention is if it is in fact a useful concept at all. You have to admit it is still the carrot and the stick approach to get people to do what they should be doing already.

How can you be with God when you have denied him?

That is a bit of a no-brainer, really. What the average mortal lump of flesh does not understand is that EVEN if you deny "god", "god" will NEVER deny you. It is pretty drop dead simple to my way of thinking.

It isn't so much as justice as the my opinion that
Life is God's creation, therefore it isn't that bad.

I do like your thinking. I have this silly idea that we are all within God, and the point of life is to realize your part in his cosmic drama. Essentially it amounts to figuring out how to rip the veil of illusion from your own eyes.

it has some essence of God in it, since he created it. And this is a truly beautiful thing, God's creation.

I agree, and I see confirmation of it everyday and in every way. I even see the sparkle of god in the eyes of a raving drunk who is lying by the side of the road. I will admit it takes a lot of vision to see the essential spark in such cases, but nonetheless, ALL beings are capable of discovering their larger identity (aka "god").

Heaven is man's limited way of saying of describing a state of being close to God.

True, but as god creates all we know, you have to admit that it is a tad bit difficult to become separated in the first place. When people stop demanding reality to conform to their little preconception about HOW reality should behave, then slowly, one bit at a time, reality becomes clearer and clearer. Eventually, it is as if you are standing in the Light of the Noon day sun... for the very first time.

Hell is man's limited way of saying of describing a state of being far away from God.

Actually, I reject even this definitely reasonable description although members of the Baha'i faith would most certainly agree. *Winks at Popeyesays* I maintain that this so-called separateness is actually paper-thin and due to people insisting that their preconceptions about reality are in fact reality. What they do not understand is that it is real only for them. The "herd" mentality makes this "truth" a bit harder to discern, but it is still nonetheless true. It is all based on "root assumptions" about reality. About what is real and what is not real, yadda, yadda, yadda.

It's like, an empty void, where no essence of God exists at all. And it's horrible.

Well, the "empty void" would illicite a distinctly different response from Buddhists, lol. Again, you should try to think of people exploring alternative aspects of reality on "god's" (their larger identity) behest. In that respect, if you expand your reasoning, then indeed there is no person that is apart from God... it is just some are like "undercover agents". "God is great" and perhaps we should begin to allow for how great that could possibly be without injecting out own limited understanding into the mix. It is sort of like everyone is speaking in secret code that only makes so much sense.

How can God bring you closer to him when you reject him?

Perhaps he has something different in mind for those who prefer to think differently than yourself. Allow the greatness of god to be great and try not to hobble it down to something that fits within your own preconceptions about HOW reality should behave.

Now that makes a little more sense to me then "you go to hell since not believing in God is akin to murder".

I agree. Your view is a much better explanation than the short-sighted opinion of some. But... their view is relative to their understanding. Depending on how mature their understanding is, one must expect the "babble of babes" on occaision.

PS: I REALLY like your thinking and I hope you understand what I am meaning, by "God is great, so let that greatness show itself in ways you least expect."

 

[Darkness]

But heaven/hell makes sense to me now. How can you be with God when you have denied him? It isn't so much as justice as the my opinion that Life is God's creation, therefore it isn't that bad. it has some essence of God in it, since he created it. And this is a truly beautiful thing, God's creation. Heaven is man's limited way of saying of describing a state of being close to God. Hell is man's limited way of saying of describing a state of being far away from God. It's like, an empty void, where no essence of God exists at all. And it's horrible. How can God bring you closer to him when you reject him?

Why does this state have to be permenant? That is the problem I have with it. If someone is seperated from God and asks His forgiveness, why can't He forgive him or her?

 

[love]

I guess if that's your idea of love then have at it! Yeah he loves you but he'll sent you to hell without a second thought. I don't know of any parents that would do that.

Are you worried about hell? I'm not.

 

[YmirGF]

Are you worried about hell? I'm not.

Nor I. Heck, I've been in paradise/heaven for over 3 decades. Hell no longer has any meaning for me. I just sit and wonder how long it will take others to embrace Reality and let go of their cherished, self-created, illusions.

 

[Kcnorwood]

Are you worried about hell? I'm not.

Can't be worried about something that I don't believe.


Reverend Rick, Let's us say that your God did invent the world & everything in it.
Why would you invent something that you KNEW might be mankinds downfall?

It's like baking cookies & placing them in front of a group of young kids with cold glasses of milk in front of them. You know sooner or later they are going to give in. But sending them to hell because they ate the cookies that you placed in front of them. Come on.

As far as the Pagan deal it's no problem none taken.

 

[~Amin~]

Why does this state have to be permenant? That is the problem I have with it. If someone is seperated from God and asks His forgiveness, why can't He forgive him or her?

SAY: "O MY SERVANTS WHO
HAVE TRANSGRESSED AGAINST THEIR SOULS!
DESPAIR NOT OF THE MERCY OF GOD:
FOR GOD FORGIVES ALL SINS:
FOR HE IS OFT-FORGIVING, MOST MERCIFUL.
QURAN 39,43.
Peace.

 

[Darkness]

SAY: "O MY SERVANTS WHO
HAVE TRANSGRESSED AGAINST THEIR SOULS!
DESPAIR NOT OF THE MERCY OF GOD:
FOR GOD FORGIVES ALL SINS:
FOR HE IS OFT-FORGIVING, MOST MERCIFUL.
QURAN 39,43.
Peace.

So if I am in hell and ask God's forgiveness, he will take me out of hell?

 

[~Amin~]

Nor I. Heck, I've been in paradise/heaven for over 3 decades. Hell no longer has any meaning for me. I just sit and wonder how long it will take others to embrace Reality and let go of their cherished, self-created, illusions.

Peace
The severe threats and fearsome punishments in the Qur'an concerning
the giving up of worship, they may be likened to a King who in order
to protect his subject' rights, inflicts a servere punishment on an
ordinary manin accordance with the degree that his crime infringes
those rights.

In the same way, the man who gives up worship and prayer is violating
in a significant manner the the rights of beings, who are like the subjects
of the Monarch of Pre-Eternity and Post-Eternity,and is infact acting unjustly
towards them.
For the perfections of beings are manifested through the glorification and
worship performed by that aspect of them which is diected towards there Maker.

The one who abandons worship does not and cannot see this worship. Indeed
he denies it.
Furthermore, beings occupy an exulted position by reason of there worship
and glorification, and each is a missive of the Eternally Besought One,
and a mirror to the Names of its Sustainer.

Since he reduces them from their high and considers them to be unimportant,
lifeless, aimless, and without duties, he is insulting them,and denying and
transgressing their perfections.
Your friend amin.
Peace.

 

[~Amin~]

So if I am in hell and ask God's forgiveness, he will take me out of hell?

Peace
That between you and God.
I not asking you to except what im saying,
just try to understand how we know God.

 

[mcteethinator]

PS: I REALLY like your thinking and I hope you understand what I am meaning, by "God is great, so let that greatness show itself in ways you least expect."

No prob, I like your thinking as well.

Who knows, we might both be wrong.

So if I am in hell and ask God's forgiveness, he will take me out of hell?

Some people believe that, actually.

I've met a lot of Muslims that believe that sometimes you are sent to hell for only a period of time to cleanse you of your transgressions.

My mother believes that when you're thrown in the lake of fire, you cease to exist, so it's not an infinite punishment.

There are many different thoughts on the concept of heaven/hell.

But as Amin said, that's between you and God.

 

[MaddLlama]

Ill kindly reask were did you get this nonsense?
Please dont lie shows how weak your argument is.
Can you show us were in the Quran?

Can you tell me where in the Quran it explicitly says that non-Muslims are worse than murderers, and that God only loves a special few people?

 

[Darkness]

Some people believe that, actually.

I've met a lot of Muslims that believe that sometimes you are sent to hell for only a period of time to cleanse you of your transgressions.

My mother believes that when you're thrown in the lake of fire, you cease to exist, so it's not an infinite punishment.

There are many different thoughts on the concept of heaven/hell.

But as Amin said, that's between you and God.

I am not particularly conscerned with my own "salvation." Have you ever read the Revelation of Lucifer the Divine? It is sort of a religious text. In the Revelation, Lucifer tells others to follow God and to go to Heaven, however, Lucifer fights against God. If your God exists, I want others to be saved. Yet, this is between me and Him. I cannot follow God's commandments, but because I love humanity I want them to live good lives and not perish.

Lucifer’s voice revealed his fatigue. “This is a matter between Him and me. I don’t want you [Christ] to involve yourself too deeply. Now go. Return to the Earth and fulfill your mission. Ascend to Heaven and takeyour rightful place by Father’s side.”

 

[~Amin~]

Can you tell me where in the Quran it explicitly says that non-Muslims are worse than murderers, and that God only loves a special few people?

Peace
Dear MaddLlama
I didnt say a special few ,God guides evryone
even those who worship His creation i witnessed
it for my self.
He loves those who are Not arrogant on the land
and dont turn away from His signs.
AND SAY,"PRAISE IS DUE TO GOD.
HE WILL SHOW YOU HIS SIGNS,
AND YOU WILL RECOGNIZE THEM.
AND YOUR LORD IS NOT UNAWARE
OF WHAT YOU DO."

 

[mcteethinator]

I am not particularly conscerned with my own "salvation." Have you ever read the Revelation of Lucifer the Divine? It is sort of a religious text. In the Revelation, Lucifer tells others to follow God and to go to Heaven, however, Lucifer fights against God. If your God exists, I want others to be saved. Yet, this is between me and Him. I cannot follow God's commandments, but because I love humanity I want them to live good lives and not perish.

Lucifer’s voice revealed his fatigue. “This is a matter between Him and me. I don’t want you [Christ] to involve yourself too deeply. Now go. Return to the Earth and fulfill your mission. Ascend to Heaven and takeyour rightful place by Father’s side.”

I have not heard of it, but i was flirting with Satanism and the like at one point in my life (astaghfirullah), but I found the perfect religion that suits my needs, Islam.

 

[MaddLlama]

Peace
Dear MaddLlama
I didnt say a special few ,God guides evryone
even those who worship His creation i witnessed
it for my self.
He loves those who are Not arrogant on the land
and dont turn away from His signs.
AND SAY,"PRAISE IS DUE TO GOD.
HE WILL SHOW YOU HIS SIGNS,
AND YOU WILL RECOGNIZE THEM.
AND YOUR LORD IS NOT UNAWARE
OF WHAT YOU DO."

OK, so can you tell me where in Quran it says that, and that non-Muslims are worse than murderers?

 

[~Amin~]

Can you tell me where in the Quran it explicitly says that non-Muslims are worse than murderers,?

Dear MaddLlamma
you also misquoted me here ,
I said those people who reject God as being Creater,
Maintainer,Cherisher of the Universe, i didnt
say non-muslims i said non-believers.
Peace